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Post by tetsujin on Sept 18, 2019 8:14:16 GMT -5
An interesting topic could be: why do people usually think Hansen didn't have chemistry with Jumbo and/or Misawa? What do their matches needed to be at the high level of the Kobashi, Kawada, Tenryu, Colón, etc matches? Maybe more Hansen attitude? Maybe more fire from Jumbo/Misawa?
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Post by nintendologic on Sept 18, 2019 12:07:38 GMT -5
With Misawa, I think it was a combination of Misawa having trouble putting together matches against an opponent who wouldn't bump for his power moves and Hansen apparently thinking he had to wrestle a more technical style against the ace. With Jumbo, I don't know. My best guess is that they were both infected by brain worms that told them to build all their matches around dueling limbwork.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 18, 2019 18:18:51 GMT -5
That's why I love the first Misawa-Hansen match in 1990 so much. Misawa has a laser-focused attack on Hansen's arm and is probably at his most aggressive ever while Hansen sells everything well.
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Post by elliott on Sept 19, 2019 0:13:55 GMT -5
Its an interesting question. Personally I've always liked the Misawa vs Hansen match-up and felt they were underrated matches. I think it is more of a problem with people liking Kobashi & Kawada better as Hansen opponents than people thinking Hansen vs Misawa "don't have chemistry" or that they had bad matches. I've been vocal about hating the 2/93 Kawada match, but people love it and point to it as an all time great match. The 7/93 Kobashi match was getting greatest match ever talk back in 93 (until 6/3/94 anyway). Hansen and Misawa never hit that level. As AJPW became more synonymous with bombs, head drops & nearfalls, those Hansen vs Misawa matches looked less and less like the later 90s AJPW most people in our circles watched first. 7/93 is pretty undeniable in all ways and 2/93 at least has the crazy stiffness hook. Misawa & Hansen don't have that one match you can really point to as standing out, but I would say their big matches were always very good. I've watched all the Jumbo vs Hansen matches multiple times but literally forget them the minute they're over. But I blame Jumbo. Really, Hansen was always aggressive in his matches, but when he was against the Ace (Backlund, Inoki, Jumbo, Colon, Misawa) he's going to work the way the Ace wants to work. Maybe Jumbo thought from a kayfabe strategic point of view that the best way to approach Hansen in a singles match is to slow him down and work the arm so he can't lariat you to death and Hansen being a professional in the role of top foreign opponent just worked the boring matches Jumbo wanted to work. They do have the one really good match where they go at each other and bleed. Jumbo was at his best in technical world title matches or playing the role of super aggressive Ace prick pissed at rebels (Choshu) or young unproven wannabes (Misawa & Friends) he could push around. Maybe? I dunno. They had some great tag matches against each other. But yeah, the singles matches don't do a thing for me.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 19, 2019 17:54:10 GMT -5
I very much feel the same way when it comes to Misawa. The matches never reached the heights of Hansen's other classic series so they've sort of become undervalued as a result. And working the ace's style makes sense to me as well (probably why I don't care for the Inoki matches, heh).
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Post by tetsujin on Sept 20, 2019 5:14:03 GMT -5
Yeah, Inoki's another good call. But I personally love the Misawa matches I saw. They're not top tier material for all the reasons people have mentioned above, but Misawa being capable of neutralize Hansen's game and having the match he wanted instead was always a fun dynamic to me. The 93 Carny final match is so great.
And glad I'm not alone in the Kawada match. Great stiff action, but I never saw it as a MOTYC nor a top 100 ever contender. Such a dull middle-part.
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Post by Cap on Sept 23, 2019 18:17:26 GMT -5
I agree with the earlier assessment of Hansen vs Misawa/Jumbo/Inoki. Put me in the camp that always felt somewhat let down by the Hansen vs Misawa matches particularly.
As for the Kawada match, I still love it, but it did really take a dive down my list when I watched it for the last ballot. I won't be surprised if a hand full of other matches jump it and it slips close threshold.
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Post by kas on Jan 14, 2020 12:16:10 GMT -5
Still need to do a deep dive on him, but just going off of his late 80s/90s All Japan stuff he is the best brawler of all time without a doubt in my mind.
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Post by Cap on Jan 17, 2020 7:34:41 GMT -5
I think there is a short list of contenders for top brawler, but Hansen is definitely on said list. Off the top of my head I'd say Satanico, Sangre Chicana, LA Park, Jerry Lawler, Necro Butcher, Terry Funk, and Mick Foley to the list of contenders.
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Post by tetsujin on Jan 17, 2020 8:12:02 GMT -5
Off topic, but what are the greatest Chicana brawls besides the MS1 match, the Perro match and the Satánico match?
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Post by elliott on Jan 17, 2020 9:13:09 GMT -5
What are the greatest movies Coppola made besides Godfather 1, Godfather 2, The Conversation and Apocalypse Now? All kidding aside, The Chicana vs MS-1 rematch from 84 is great The trios with Fiera & Mocho Cota vs Los Infernales the week after the 83 classic vs Villano III 12/84 The Elimination 4 way with Perro, Villano III & Faraon 91 or 92 matches against Perro (can't remember the year off hand) El Dandy, Ringo Mendoza & Sangre Chicana vs. El Satanico, MS-1 & Ken Timb (EMLL 11/16/90) Chicana Cien Caras & Mascara Ano 2000 vs. Konnan el Barbaro, Perro Aguayo, & El Rayo de Jalisco Jr. (CMLL 3/1/92) There's a 2009 match against Villano III that has been praised that I don't remember but is surely a brawl. Anyway, none of these are on the level of the 3 matches you named. The Elimination 4 way is probably the closest to that level. But I would say those 3 compare favorably to anyone else's 3 best matches ever.
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Post by elliott on Jan 17, 2020 9:15:51 GMT -5
I think there is a short list of contenders for top brawler, but Hansen is definitely on said list. Off the top of my head I'd say Satanico, Sangre Chicana, LA Park, Jerry Lawler, Necro Butcher, Terry Funk, and Mick Foley to the list of contenders. I'd put Invader I high on the list too.
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Post by elliott on Jan 17, 2020 9:30:16 GMT -5
Sorry to flood this topic but something that occurred to me, do people consider Hansen vs Kobashi matches brawls? I feel like the gut reaction is to just say "every" Hansen match is a brawl (or at least the vast majority) but I haven't really thought about it. Something like 7/93 is certainly hard fought and aggressive, but labeling it a brawl feels borderline. The Misawa matches aren't really brawls. The 2/93 Kawada match I'd consider to be a brawl, but it sucks so who cares. Some of the other (and better) Kawada are also intense and aggressive but again seem borderline.
I haven't really put much thought into it and I was curious what others thought. Even if you don't consider some of 90s Hansen's great matches to be brawls, he still belongs on the best brawler list. If you do consider those matches brawls, you can still see they're restrained compared to older Hansen matches and brawls in the broader wrestling landscape at the time.
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Post by bossrock on Jan 17, 2020 23:12:10 GMT -5
Even if a lot of his 90's AJPW weren't "brawls" in the traditional sense, I would still consider Hansen a "brawler" during that time due to his highly physical, chaotic style.
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Post by Cap on Jan 20, 2020 17:58:10 GMT -5
I do not see the Hansen v Kobashi matches as brawls. I consider them to have elements of brawls to them. I think certain segments of those matches become brawls for the better of the match as a whole, but I wouldn't call them brawls.
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