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Post by Cap on Jul 18, 2019 15:44:31 GMT -5
What can you say about Misawa? He might be the best. He was the ace, the rock of a prolific time for great wrestling. I don't know what to say about him and I am not trying to undersell him. Someone else will just be more suited to discuss him to start.
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Post by bossrock on Jul 18, 2019 23:24:33 GMT -5
There are quite a few folks here who have seen much more wrestling than I. But from everything I HAVE seen, Misawa is at least a top 3 contender to me. Second only to Kobashi for most matches to make my ballot. Has appeared in the most matches I've gone the full 5 stars for. Tremendous singles wrestler, tremendous tag wrestler, had an argument for best in the world for at least a decade. When I first got in to 90's AJPW (which is still by far my favorite era/promotion of wrestling), he was the guy who stuck out the most. And while Kobashi has probably surpassed him as my all-time favorite, Misawa will always be right up there.
When it comes to offense, Kobashi was the only one better. It seems like 60-70% of his offense was elbows, but his kicks, Tiger Driver, Tiger Suplex, Emerald Flowsion, pescado, frog splash, dives, and occasional hurricanrana were things of absolute beauty. And even in matches where he pretty much relied exclusively on elbows, just like Lawler and Funk did with punches, he knew how to make them count. He's also arguably the GOAT in selling. The subtleties in selling arm damage, appearing almost KO'd after huge slams (he tended to adjust his tights too often during these spots though) and even in how he would mount his comebacks. I'll never forget the '95 Triple Crown match against Kobashi where after getting destroyed for 10 minutes, he mounts a pretty pedestrian comeback and throws a rather lackluster Tiger Suplex. He still hadn't fully recovered and when realizing that wasn't going to cut it, threw an even more powerful Tiger Suplex. Terrific stuff.
As great as he was, there are certainly a few things you could knock him for. He was a bit "too stoic" at times and often relied on his opponent (Kawada and Kobashi) to carry the emotional load of a match. But at the same time, considering he was the definitive ace who's gimmick was literally just being "the best", it makes sense that the majority of the story would focus on how his opponent would take the fight to him only for it to shift in the final act to "how does Misawa pull it off this time?" You could similarly knock him for playing more of a supporting role in a lot of the early 90's tag matches which seemed to center more around Kawada and Kobashi. But at the same time I think it goes back to his just being "the best" and never needing to be more than a clean-up hitter. And when it comes to the all-time great tags like 12/6/96 and 6/9/95, he absolutely had a starring role and always knocked it out of the park.
The last few years of his career are difficult to watch and he couldn't adjust in the same way Kawada did, but being great from pretty much 1990 to 2004 makes for a pretty amazing track record.
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Post by Cap on Jul 19, 2019 9:48:20 GMT -5
This is going to sound weird, but the more I watch Misawa and the more I watch great matches the more I "come around" on Misawa. I have always loved him, but I always preferred the other parts of his great matches (Kobashi, Jumbo, Taua, Kawada, Akyama, Hansen, etc). I always sort of felt like I was low on Misawa, even thinking he was one of the best to ever do it. Maybe it was because he felt like the a stock answer to the GOAT question. I still prefer Kobashi and Hansen, but Misawa's greatness is just so undeniable to me and for my tastes.
There are a few legit critique I have. I would like to see more emotion, but that is totally a matter of personal taste. I get his brand of charisma and what he accomplished with the stoic ace stuff. Honestly, it probably did more to help guys like Kobashi and Kawada. His lack of adjustment later on is a good point too. The lack of diverse opponents in high end matches is another one. I know some people like his work against Hansen, but I think he slows Hansen down too much and just doesn't adjust as well to other styles. To be clear, its very nit picky. They are still very good, but we are talking about greatest matches ever.
In terms of matches, we all know the hits. I think the big Taua singles match (4/15/95) is still a little bit of a sleeper. If people haven't gotten on that one, I'd really suggest it. He also has a match I think is a bit underrated match against Kawada in NOAH (7/18/05) where they try to do murder on one another.
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Post by bossrock on Jul 19, 2019 16:46:43 GMT -5
I know some people like his work against Hansen, but I think he slows Hansen down too much and just doesn't adjust as well to other styles. To be clear, its very nit picky. They are still very good, but we are talking about greatest matches ever. Interesting you bring up the Hansen matches because it seems like most are kinda low on that series. Like you allude to, they weren't the best clash of styles (especially when Misawa first won the title and Hansen spent a good chunk of time working over Misawa's LEFT arm and not his right). But I still absolutely love their first Triple Crown match in 1990 because it's probably the most unique Misawa performance ever. He just relentlessly attacks Hansen's arm and even uses a chair and the bullrope. Really wish we saw more of that aggressive edge from him. The '93 CC final I think is really underrated as well.
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Post by elliott on Jul 20, 2019 16:09:08 GMT -5
I think 94-1/97 Misawa is one of the best 3 year runs anyone ever had.
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Post by nintendologic on Jul 28, 2019 23:59:14 GMT -5
I think Misawa's stoicism is seriously overblown. The best way I've heard it described is that he wrestled for the front row. He didn't engage in the kind of over-the-top histrionics that carried to the cheap seats (his neck selling in 6/3/94 is so subtle that hardly anyone ever comments on it despite it being a major part of the match), but he was plenty expressive when he needed to be. Note the look of exertion on his face whenever he applied the facelock. Also note how he grunted in pain when his opponents tagged him with a stiff blow.
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Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 3:28:47 GMT -5
Best Misawa opponent, Kawada or Kobashi?
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Post by bossrock on Sept 8, 2019 9:37:26 GMT -5
If we're just talking about singles matches, then Kobashi. But if we're including tags then Kawada and it's not particularly close. I've come around a bit on the later 90's Kawada matches but as of right now only two would make my list (6/3/94 and 7/24/95). All but one Kobashi title match would make my list right now.
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Post by microstatistics on Sept 8, 2019 19:20:46 GMT -5
If we're just talking about singles matches, then Kobashi. But if we're including tags then Kawada and it's not particularly close. Agree. Misawa is someone I'm not so sure on anymore. His work outside the 4 corners and Jumbo has been pretty disappointing. The Takayama series 2001-02 has its fans but I thought those matches were merely good rather than great. I like the Steve Williams match from 7/28/1994 but not as much as others. Need to rewatch the Sano series and check out the Morishima matches.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 8, 2019 21:19:41 GMT -5
While I don't think he has that great carry job most look for in a GOAT contender, I think his resume outside of the other pillars, Jun, and Jumbo is very good. The '94 Williams match is rightfully the most famous but they had quite a few good matches together. Same with Gordy. The Kawada tag series against Miracle Violence Connection in general is really good. The Takayama matches are great, love the Vader series, and he has a really fun one against Hase in 2000.
The 2003 Sano match is very good. As is the 2006 Morishima match despite Misawa's constant need to adjust his tights (even one spot where he's getting clubbed). The ending in particular is great. There's also a pretty good GHC title defense against Marufuji that same year. So while I've been critical of his post-2004 run, he was still capable of having good matches.
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Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 21:30:55 GMT -5
While I don't think he has that great carry job most look for in a GOAT contender, I think his resume outside of the other pillars, Jun, and Jumbo is very good. The '94 Williams match is rightfully the most famous but they had quite a few good matches together. Same with Gordy. The Kawada tag series against Miracle Violence Connection in general is really good. The Takayama matches are great, love the Vader series, and he has a really fun one against Hase in 2000. The 2003 Sano match is very good. As is the 2006 Morishima match despite Misawa's constant need to adjust his tights (even one spot where he's getting clubbed). The ending in particular is great. There's also a pretty good GHC title defense against Marufuji that same year. So while I've been critical of his post-2004 run, he was still capable of having good matches. So literally every fucking Misawa match ever. You'd think the goddamn Ace would find some pants he felt comfortable working in.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 14, 2019 15:13:10 GMT -5
Microstatistics' post about Misawa's matches outside of the pillars and Jumbo had me thinking about his overall body of work. Here are some good to great matches Misawa had against opponents that weren't Kawada, Kobashi, Taue, Jumbo, or Jun (although a few of them are matches where he's partners with them).
vs. Stan Hansen (7/27/1990) vs. Terry Gordy (6/1/1991) w/ Toshiaki Kawada vs. Terry Gordy and Steve Williams (2/26/1991) vs. Terry Gordy (4/14/1992) vs. Stan Hansen (8/22/1992) vs. Stan Hansen (4/21/1993) vs. Stan Hansen (5/21/1993) vs. Steve Williams (7/28/1994) w/Kenta Kobashi vs. Steve Williams and Johnny Ace (3/4/1995) vs. Gary Albright (3/2/1996) w/Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams and Johnny Ace (6/7/1996) w/Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams and Gary Albright (8/31/1997) vs. Steve Williams (10/11/1997) vs. Johnny Ace (2/28/1998) vs. Vader (3/28/1999) vs. Vader (5/2/1999) vs. Vader (9/4/1999) vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (9/4/1999?) vs. Hiroshi Hase (1/9/2000) vs. Yoshinari Ogawa (4/15/2000) vs. Vader (12/23/2000) w/Jun Akiyama vs. Shinya Hashimoto and Yuji Nagata (3/2/2001) vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (4/15/2001) vs. Kodo Fuyuki (4/7/2002) vs. Yoshinari Ogawa (12/7/2002) vs. Takuma Sano (6/6/2003) vs. Takeshi Morishima (3/5/2006) vs. Naomichi Marufuji (12/10/2006)
Granted I'm a bit higher on the Hansen series than most, but I think their matches are underrated.
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Post by nintendologic on Sept 14, 2019 15:35:51 GMT -5
The 2002 Takayama match should be on that list. And the third Vader match was on 10/30/1999.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 14, 2019 15:37:42 GMT -5
The 2002 Takayama match should be on that list. And the third Vader match was on 10/30/1999. That's the one where Misawa loses in less than 8 minutes right? Thanks, had a heck of a time confirming that date.
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Post by nintendologic on Sept 16, 2019 8:44:13 GMT -5
After looking into it more, it turns out that Misawa did wrestle Vader on the 9/4 show. Apparently, the original plan was for Vader to wrestle Kawada, but he was injured so Misawa pulled double duty after wrestling Takayama earlier in the night. It's not much of a match, basically a Vader squash. Their Triple Crown matches (on 5/2 and 10/30) are the Misawa/Vader matches you want.
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