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Post by Cap on Jul 19, 2019 9:57:41 GMT -5
The most popular wrestler of all time, if we are just talking peak? Great matches before and after the neck. Defined the Attitude era style. I have trouble revisiting the attitude era because its to cringy, but I do want to go back and cherry pick his biggest post neck surgery matches.
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2019 12:36:14 GMT -5
The most popular wrestler of all time, if we are just talking peak? Great matches before and after the neck. Defined the Attitude era style. I have trouble revisiting the attitude era because its to cringy, but I do want to go back and cherry pick his biggest post neck surgery matches. This has been the popular line since Austin's peak (which coincided with peak Hogan Hate in our communities) and I'm not sure I buy it anymore. I'm sure there are lots of metrics we can point to that would favor Austin, but he had tons of advantages. Monthly PPV's, weekly live TV in huge arena's, merchandise, experience marketing on a global level etc. But Hogan really laid the foundation for all of that. And most importantly I feel like Hogan had to be more popular if for no other reason that his peak lasted so much longer & he's still a more famous popular culture figure than Austin and we're further from Hogan's peak than Austin's. I don't know what to do about Jim Londos as far as most popular wrestler of all time. He was the biggest star in America and was able to go to Europe & draw 50,000 + people to shows in a world before TV, let alone internet. He was basically his own WrestleMania. Back to in ring stuff, I agree about the attitude era stuff completely, which is kinda funny considering how much I love the Over the Edge match with Foley. Its my top WWE singles match ever partly because of how well it defined the best of the "attitude era." |
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Post by bossrock on Aug 4, 2019 12:53:48 GMT -5
The most popular wrestler of all time, if we are just talking peak? Great matches before and after the neck. Defined the Attitude era style. I have trouble revisiting the attitude era because its to cringy, but I do want to go back and cherry pick his biggest post neck surgery matches. But Hogan really laid the foundation for all of that. And most importantly I feel like Hogan had to be more popular if for no other reason that his peak lasted so much longer & he's still a more famous popular culture figure than Austin and we're further from Hogan's peak than Austin's. The way I always look at it is that if you ask someone who knows nothing about wrestling, they MIGHT have heard about Austin. But literally everyone knows who Hogan is. |
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Post by Cap on Aug 5, 2019 17:11:51 GMT -5
I mean comparing across contexts is virtually impossible for all the reasons Elliot discusses. I think just on experience, Austin's popularity when I was in middle school (and not just in my middle school) was other worldly. EVERYONE knew who he was and he resonated so broadly. I am not sure it all equated to buts in seats, but the recognition he had in his prime was massive and he definitely brought eyes to the wwe, even if inconsistant. I would argue that you maybe more likely to find people familiar with Hogan or Flair (or even Savage), but you are more likely find someone who can discuss a steve austin moment in some detail. Some of that is recency, but I feel like others might have more pop culture resonance, but when austin was hot, people were onto the product.
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Post by bossrock on Aug 5, 2019 17:56:22 GMT -5
I will admit that Austin and the Rock were pretty inescapable in the 90's.
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Post by elliott on Aug 5, 2019 19:29:30 GMT -5
Cap, everything you've said about Austin applies to Hogan. WWE went from a large territory to a worldwide powerhouse under Hogan. People were very much onto the product.
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Post by Cap on Aug 5, 2019 19:40:10 GMT -5
I get that. Maybe its generational. I just feel like there is more of a recognition of Hogan as an abstraction... as a thing they know exists over in wrestling where people do things and people were - for admittedly a shorter period of time - talking about what Austin was doing week to week. Again, its apples and oranges in a way. The business was different. I just can't shake the feeling that Austin was singular in his absolute peak.
Its always hard for me to gage these things because my brain doesn't work in non-wrestling-fan mode really and numbers just don't really matter to me unless you are comparing from virtually the same context because they are over determined in my mind.
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Post by elliott on Aug 6, 2019 12:29:26 GMT -5
Cap said:
and
I was in 8th & 9th grade during Austin's peak. DylanWaco & I are from (different parts of) the same hometown and I know he's talked about how DDP was more popular in his high school than Austin & Goldberg during their 1998 rise and this was very much my experience as well. The idea that Austin was this singular force at his peak, especially in comparison to peak Hogan is just not something I can support. Of course Austin was a enormous star, but Mick Foley was a NYT best selling author, The Rock became a movie star, Goldberg was 90% the mainstream name that Austin was, Hogan was the reason the Monday Night Wars ever even began. Its not like JYD wrote a best seller in 1986 and Randy Savage went on to become the next Sly Stallone.
WWE's business model was still all about house shows during Hogan's rise. They didn't have a show like Monday Night Raw that Hogan appeared on every week. Had they, I'm certain kids then would have been talking about his weekly antics like we did with Austin. We've all heard anecdotes I'm sure of non-wrestling people talking about Hogan/Andre SNME on the playground or how the first time their parents like them stay up late was to watch SNME on the weekends.
None of this is meant to denigrate Austin. He's one of the biggest stars ever, one of the best workers, promos, characters. Whatever. I love that guy. Austin was an enormous, huge, meteoric success who succeeded within a framework that was created by and for Hulk Hogan. Austin was Sandy Koufax. Hogan was Babe. Austin was Tyson. Hogan was Ali.
I think BossRock summed it up really well when he said
"The way I always look at it is that if you ask someone who knows nothing about wrestling, they MIGHT have heard about Austin. But literally everyone knows who Hogan is."
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Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 5:51:09 GMT -5
The most popular wrestler of all time, if we are just talking peak? Great matches before and after the neck. Defined the Attitude era style. I have trouble revisiting the attitude era because its to cringy, but I do want to go back and cherry pick his biggest post neck surgery matches. I would actually really like to watch his entire 2001 run. Whenever people talk about it, I always just kinda think about the Rock Mania match, the Angle SummerSlam match, the Benoit smackdown match (this was the long one right?) & the Hunter Quad Tag. I've never liked the 3 stages of hell match. But looking at a match list for a comp (listed at "VG" quality, is there an EX quality Austin 2001 comp?) there's a bunch of stuff I'd like to watch. There's some interesting looking stuff in theory right after he came back in late 2000. I recall him not really kicking into gear until 2001 though. Starting with the 12/00 6 Way HIAC match he's got a bunch of stuff I'd like to watch w/ Rock vs Angle/Regal 12/14/00 vs Regal 12/18/00 vs Regal 1/1/01 vs Angle 1/8/01 w/ APA vs Angle, Edge & CHristian 1/15/01 w/ HHH s Angle/Rock 2/5/01 vs Benoit 2/15/01 w/ Rock vs Angle/Benoit 2/19/01 vs HHH 3 Stages of Hell vs Angle 3/1/01 w/Rock vs Angle & HHH 3/5/01 vs Angle 3/15/01 Mania vs Rock Cage Night after Mania w/HHH & Steph vs Hardys & lita 4/9/01 w/HHH, Edge & Christian vs Kane/Taker/Hardys 4/23/01 HHH Quad Tag 5/21/01 vs Benoit 5/28/01 vs Benoit 5/31/01 vs Jericho 6/4/01 w/ Vince vs Benoit & Jericho 6/7/01 vs Spike Dudley 6/14/01 w/ Dudleys vs Benoit, Jericho & Spike Dudley 6/18/01 vs Matt Hardy 8/6/01 w/ Dudley's vs Angle & Hardy's 8/9/01 vs Angle SummerSlam vs Jericho 8/27/01 vs RVD 9/6/01 w/ RVD vs Angle/Jericho 9/17/01 vs Tajiri 9/20/01 vs Angle Unforgiven vs Angle 10/8/01 w/ Booker vs Angle & Taker 10/15/01 vs Rock Rebellion (I don't think I've ever seen this!) w/ Angle vs Jerico & Rock 11/15/01 Survivor Series Match vs Regal Strap Match 11/29/01 vs Jericho 12/3/01 w/ Rock vs Angle & Jericho 12/6/01 vs Angle Vengeance vs Jericho Vengeance vs Jericho Steel Cage 12/10/01 vs Booker T in a Grocery Store 12/13 01 (i don't remember this at all lol) vs Angle 1/10/02 His 2002 doesn't look very good. A lot of stuff against Booker T and Scott Hall. That 2001 is just a murders row of shit I want to see. Even stuff I'm sure can't be more than like 2 minutes like the Tajiri, Hardy & Spike matches would be fun watches on an Austin 2001 comp. |
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Post by Kadaveri on Sept 8, 2019 9:44:30 GMT -5
Omg how do you not remember the Austin vs. Booker T Grocery Store fight? Even just this year's StarrCast they were asking Booker about it, it's probably the most famous segment he was ever in. The Spike Dudley match is 4 minutes and is one of the best sub-5 minute WWE matches ever. A great case for how 2001 Austin was producing great stuff with just about anything. |
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Post by Cap on Sept 8, 2019 10:10:00 GMT -5
Yeah... that looks fucking great actually. I may have to just go through this in order. I forgot he had a run with Regal. I need that in my life.
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Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 20:20:33 GMT -5
Yeah I sort of have to temper expectations. In a perfect world, I could see something like Austin & Dudleys vs Benoit, Jericho & Spike Dudley 6/18/01 being a really awesome match. But in reality we'd be lucky if it went 10 minutes. Still, with high points like Mania, SummerSlam, Hunter's Quad Tag & the long Benoit match a bunch of really fun 5 minute TV matches would make for a great year. But there could be some really good shit in there. For example, how's the Rebellion match with Rock?
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Post by elliott on Feb 20, 2021 13:22:29 GMT -5
I read in a December 1995 WON that Austin was strongly considering going to All Japan in 1996 instead of WWF. With the WWF in dire straits financially and the opportunity to make good money in AJPW and book independent dates, this seems like it could have been a viable option. It would have been interesting to see waht that universe would have looked like.
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Post by bossrock on Feb 20, 2021 14:07:05 GMT -5
Stunning Steve locking up with the Pillars could've been fun stuff.
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Post by elliott on Feb 20, 2021 14:31:44 GMT -5
It wouldve been interesting to see how he fit in. I can't imagine they throw him in with the pillars right away. I'm not sure Austin had the offense at that stage to keep up with KObashi or Misawa and think of the gaijin they pushed in the 90s: Hansen, Williams, Albright, Ace, Vader. Those are gigantic men. Austin's not small compared to a normal human but compared to Hansen, Vader and Dr Death he is.
I wonder if he would've been more like the new Dan Kroffat. King of the midcard. Which between that, ECW, and other independents probably would've been a good living.
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