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Post by elliott on Nov 18, 2019 13:48:21 GMT -5
I figured instead of starting a million different threads I'd just start one thread for all things underrated and we can spin things off as needed. Think of this as a "comments that don't warrant a thread" with a focus on underrated stuff.
Wrestlers, teams, matches, promotions, feuds, moves, announcers, interviews, angles, years, ppvs/shows, whatever.
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Post by Cap on Nov 19, 2019 11:37:46 GMT -5
Kawada's KO sell spot is underrated. Pass it on.
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Post by bossrock on Nov 19, 2019 18:08:53 GMT -5
Underrated feud: Matt Hardy vs. MVP
Underrated announce team: JBL and Michael Cole (mid to late 2000's)
Underrated wrestler: Elix Skipper
Underrated move: Lance Archer's chokeslam
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Post by Cap on Nov 20, 2019 8:32:05 GMT -5
Erick Stevens just posted on twitter that Garry Albright is the most underrated wrestler in history. While it is bold to use a superlative in any context, I'd agree he might be in the conversation. Albright is a delight to watch and has certainly gotten his due in certain corners of wrestling fandom, but I think he is probably generally undervalued. I would also throw Batista in that conversation. While he was green as grass early on, he really developed a sense of drama and storytelling. He also did well develop moves and mannerisms that highlighted his strengths and hid his weaknesses. Highlights off the top of my head: - Best narrative arch coming out of evolution (made that group actually interesting beyond being a faction full of stars) - Some really good big matches (I may do a dive this winter and come back with a decent list, but evolution v shield, a few taker matches, hhh matches, and some multi man matches stand out) - For me, a top 5 or 6 Taker Mania Match - Two really good HHH matches at mania (neither of which he gets enough credit for in terms of helping produce best version of a HHH match) - Undervalued for his roll in the Daniel Bryan run and Mania triple threat match. - Two of the best send heel offs/retirements in wrestling. - Absolute dynamite last run with out of the box interviews and segments (these feel genuinely cutting edge to me, like people should be studying them and what in his approach to promos produced them) - Entertaining run with Eddie Guerrero that wasn't ALL Eddie.
Yeah, I definitely just talked myself into Albright and Batista dives once I turn grades in.
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Post by bossrock on Nov 20, 2019 20:45:58 GMT -5
Erick Stevens just posted on twitter that Garry Albright is the most underrated wrestler in history. While it is bold to use a superlative in any context, I'd agree he might be in the conversation. Albright is a delight to watch and has certainly gotten his due in certain corners of wrestling fandom, but I think he is probably generally undervalued. Have really enjoyed what I've seen of Albright. He gelled super well with AJPW guys like Misawa and Kawada and his stuff with Tamura is a hoot. Love stocky dudes with power. |
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Post by microstatistics on Nov 20, 2019 23:11:26 GMT -5
Kawada's KO sell spot is underrated. Pass it on. No offense but this is anything but underrated. I feel HHH and Orton might be underrated. They aren't exactly great wrestlers and have obvious flaws but HHH gets a disproportional amount of hate and criticisms of Orton being a charisma blackhole are unfair. |
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Post by Cap on Nov 21, 2019 7:20:31 GMT -5
Kawada's KO sell spot is underrated. Pass it on. No offense but this is anything but underrated. It was a joke. Elliott and I had it out a while back about that spot and he doesn't enjoy it quite as much as I do. |
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Post by microstatistics on Nov 21, 2019 12:33:31 GMT -5
No offense but this is anything but underrated. It was a joke. Elliott and I had it out a while back about that spot and he doesn't enjoy it quite as much as I do. Whoops, my mistake, that makes more sense. |
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Post by Cap on Nov 21, 2019 14:22:32 GMT -5
Underrated feud: Matt Hardy vs. MVP Underrated announce team: JBL and Michael Cole (mid to late 2000's) Underrated wrestler: Elix SkipperUnderrated move: Lance Archer's chokeslam I want to bump this idea that Elix Skipper is an underrated wrestler. I want to say I agree with this, but 1) I don't think he is generally rated at all really so he sort of can't be anything but underrated in my mind and 2) I am also not sure how I would defend my position because its been a really long time since I have watched ANYTHING from Skipper. I have very fond memories of early TNA and obviously his XXX vs AMW feud is probably the standout there. What would you (or anyone) recommend to get an idea of of Skipper and make the case that people are sleeping on him? |
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Post by Cap on Nov 21, 2019 14:35:43 GMT -5
Kawada's KO sell spot is underrated. Pass it on. I feel HHH and Orton might be underrated. They aren't exactly great wrestlers and have obvious flaws but HHH gets a disproportional amount of hate and criticisms of Orton being a charisma blackhole are unfair. I go back and forth on both these guys a good bit, HHH more so than Orton. I honestly sort of think Orton is a really talented wrestler that COULD have a banger if he wanted, but has no desire to. I feel like he saw the writing on the wall a while ago. He wasn't going to really excel or stand out in the ring with the likes of Punk, Bryan, Cesaro, Rollins and then later Zayn, Joe, Styles, etc etc etc starting to set the tone for the roster, so he decided to be something else, to lean into what a lot of people see as his most boring tendencies while still remaining a valuable and relevant part of the larger WWE puzzle. I know its cliche to say Bryan can get a good match out of anyone, but he kinda can. At the same time I think the proof is in his feud with Bryan. Those matches were really really good and it wasn't just a Bryan carry job. He had a couple of highights with Punk too (just off the top of my head). Orton can be really good to great when that is what he wants to do or is called to do, but it sort of feels like that's not his jam. That is just in ring. Promo wise he is hit or miss to me, but again, when motivated (or seemingly so) he feels like quite a good, well rounded wrestler in that regard.
HHH is tougher for me. I think the issue with HHH is that when he completely self indulges its bad. He needs someone he will listen to (Bryan, Foley, Rock, Taker, Austin) help steer the ship or he needs to really want to get someone over who also happens to kinda have a knack for his style (Batista - see my above post). Sometimes I watch something like HHH vs HBK HIAC or HHH v Rollins or Sting at Mania and I could not be more done with him. Those strike me as the worst tendencies of HHH blown up to 1,000. At the same time I can't ignore that he has quite a few matches I consider GREAT. You don't have v Foley (Rumble), v Bryan (Mania), v Taker (Mania x2), v Batista (Mania and Vengeance), v Austin (No Way Out), w Austin v Benoit and Jericho (Raw) and not be at least pretty good. I get that he got lots of chances to be in there with good wrestlers on big stages, but its not all carry jobs. His interview style isn't really my thing, but he has his moments.
So I tend to agree that both are probably underrated a bit, HHH more so than Orton for me.
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Post by bossrock on Nov 21, 2019 21:23:37 GMT -5
Your point about Bryan getting a good match out of anyone seems rather apt when you consider HHH's match with him, but at the same time that felt like a match we could have possibly gotten more out of him if he wasn't so insecure and obsessed with looking good and creating "epics". He's always struck me as a guy who could have been way better than he actually was if he actually worked like a vulnerable yet crafty heel instead of this big match badass he always viewed himself as.
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Post by Cap on Nov 21, 2019 22:25:28 GMT -5
I would agree with that on the whole. Trips isn't bad in my mind, he just has really bad tendencies and too much power to impose them on folks. The funny thing is, I think the Bryan match could have used 2-4 more minutes of HHH adding just a touch of that epicness and it would have been a sure fire 5 star classic to me. Its a match that felt - to me - like it got cut just before it could have peaked.
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Post by elliott on Nov 28, 2019 5:13:02 GMT -5
I was wondering if Albright would make my top 10 Gaijin shoot style workers list..
Volk, Carl Greco, Ilioukhine, Kopylov, Vader, Backlund, Hashimikov, Zangiev, Flynn, Shamrock, Steve Nelson, Gene Lydick, Zouev, Billy Scott, Tom Burton, Dan Severn, Mark Silver, Tenta, Wellington Wilkins, Norman Smiley, Bart Vale, Dick Vrij, Grom Zaza, Hans Nyman, Willie Williams, Joe Malenko, Dieseul Berto.
Without thinking too hard about it I would definitely rank him behind Volk, Greco, Ilioukhine, Kopylov, Vader, Zaza, Berto, Zangiev, Wilkins, Backlund, Flynn, Hashimikov, Vrij... err yeah, Albright wouldn't make my top 10 Gaijin shoot stylists. He's good. Better than his reputation when he was working and in the immediate aftermath. He had some clear positives for sure but I've never seen him carry a match before. If he's getting re-evaluated now, that's great but I'm not sure that he's substantially better than guys like Severn, Lydick or Steve Nelson. Albright is a good template for a great worker to build a match around for sure, but definitely not the most underrated guy ever. He's like if Rick Steiner got to work big singles matches against guys who were great in big singles matches.
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Post by Cap on Nov 28, 2019 9:38:08 GMT -5
I was wondering if Albright would make my top 10 Gaijin shoot style workers list.. Volk, Carl Greco, Ilioukhine, Kopylov, Vader, Backlund, Hashimikov, Zangiev, Flynn, Shamrock, Steve Nelson, Gene Lydick, Zouev, Billy Scott, Tom Burton, Dan Severn, Mark Silver, Tenta, Wellington Wilkins, Norman Smiley, Bart Vale, Dick Vrij, Grom Zaza, Hans Nyman, Willie Williams, Joe Malenko, Dieseul Berto. Without thinking too hard about it I would definitely rank him behind Volk, Greco, Ilioukhine, Kopylov, Vader, Zaza, Berto, Zangiev, Wilkins, Backlund, Flynn, Hashimikov, Vrij... err yeah, Albright wouldn't make my top 10 Gaijin shoot stylists. He's good. Better than his reputation when he was working and in the immediate aftermath. He had some clear positives for sure but I've never seen him carry a match before. If he's getting re-evaluated now, that's great but I'm not sure that he's substantially better than guys like Severn, Lydick or Steve Nelson. Albright is a good template for a great worker to build a match around for sure, but definitely not the most underrated guy ever. He's like if Rick Steiner got to work big singles matches against guys who were great in big singles matches. That sounds awesome.
I would agree that the "most underrated ever" is a bit much. I think more than anything he probably comes off better now. than at the time. It feels like his style - or maybe more accurately, what is appealing about him - is more in vogue now. He could launch people. He was freakishly strong. He was good for some holy shit moments. He couldn't put the rest of the match together quite like others. 2019 wrestling would probably look more favorably upon him in that regard.
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Post by elliott on Dec 8, 2019 5:11:55 GMT -5
I think Robert Gibson might be the most underrated wrestler ever. What other transparently great wrestler did people just pretend was average at best forever? Maybe Taue...but Taue was getting huge praise as early as 95 and has ever since.
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