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Post by kas on Mar 10, 2020 12:17:58 GMT -5
Two workers who have a reputation as the best monsters in Joshi. Who you got?
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Post by jetlag on Mar 10, 2020 15:23:31 GMT -5
I have never really seen the Bull Nakano side of this argument. While Aja Kong pretty much does her thing in her matches, it's really effective and she has the matches throughout 3 decades in her favor. I'd even take Ajas "disappointing" stuff (ARSION material, some let-down matches against Meiko) over much of what Bull has done. I enjoy Bull, but so much of her material has the feel of "that should've been better".
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Post by elliott on Mar 10, 2020 16:44:06 GMT -5
Devil Masami
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Post by elliott on Mar 14, 2020 14:39:46 GMT -5
I plan on coming back to this later in more detail, but I voted for Bull. I have zero expectation that anyone else would favor Bull in this match-up. Aja has clear major advantages in terms of style, era, opponents, footage availability, longevity etc. But I went with Nakano because Aja's big disadvantage in this comparison is too much to overcome. Aja Kong was just never as great of a pro-wrestler as Bull Nakano was.
Both are clearly "All Time Great Wrestlers." Aja would make my top 50 all time list. Bull would likely make a top 20.
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Post by kas on Mar 14, 2020 17:07:26 GMT -5
I actually agree with you. For whatever reason, Bull's work just resonates with me more.
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Post by bossrock on Mar 15, 2020 6:54:02 GMT -5
I went with Aja but Bull is still someone I need to do a deeper dive on.
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Post by elliott on Mar 15, 2020 17:36:50 GMT -5
No better time for a Bull Nakano deep dive than during a global pandemic. I think she has the best look in the history of wrestling and her top rope leg drop is one of my 3 favorite finishers ever. Hansen's lariat and Savage's top rope elbow would be my other two.
If I did my top 5 Aja Kong matches, Bull Nakano would be in literally all of them. If I did my top 5 Bull Nakano matches, there's no way Aja is in all 5.
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Post by Kadaveri on Mar 15, 2020 19:02:25 GMT -5
Aja had a greater career and will probably have more matches in a Top 100, but Bull Nakano was the better wrestler.
Nakano just seems to innately 'get' pro-wrestling. Watch her get launched up the card as Dump Matsumoto's new tag partner at the age of 17 and totally looking the part in main event tag matches as a fearsome villain. The next 10 years till retirement I don't think she was ever any less than very good. Aja doesn't have that. She was wrestling a good 5 years or so before she became a real good wrestler.
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Post by Cap on Mar 16, 2020 8:11:56 GMT -5
When I first saw this I thought "Aja, probably" and then I thought more about it. It is at least much closer than I thought it would be. I'll also try to come back and do a more complete write up later, but Bull has better representation on my list. She, I think, is a more versatile wrestler. I may try to get a mini dive on both beyond the big stuff and stuff I have seen more recently.
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Post by elliott on Mar 16, 2020 17:26:16 GMT -5
Every time I start to try to write something, it starts to turn into a major write-up and I end up stopping or running out of time. So I'm gonna try and just hit a few quick points.
Even if people pick Aja but say "BUt its close and I had to think about it," it is really a win for Bull when you adjust for all of the advantages Aja has in this sort of comparison.
People watching for the first time now will see 1990 Bull Nakano vs AJa Kong matches put over and assume it is two great wrestlers having great matches together. But Aja wasn't a great wrestler during the Bull feud, and at the start of it wasn't even really "good." Aja turned into a good and then great wrestler over the course of 2+ years feuding with Bull. Feuding with 1990 Aja Kong was a burden. Feuding with 1990 Bull Nakano is the best thing that could happen for a young wrestler.
Bull was literally the best wrestler in every match she was in from probably 1989 up until the Devil Masami match in 1993. And then you realize that in 1993, Bull & Devil hadn't been in the same ring together in probably 6 years and the degree of difficulty to have a match that good under those circumstances causes your brain to start melting out of your ears.
While Aja was the Ace for AJW during the joshi interpromotional era getting to have big matches with all the top female stars, Bull was mostly phased out. She would still occasionally get big matches during the 93-95 interpromotional era and she always delivered (vs Devil, vs Kandori, Queendom Tag), but just as often she would be in a 6-8 person tag lower on the card or working with someone from the next generation of AJW like Tomoko Watanabe or Kaoru Ito. Bull also traveled to America and was on WWF and then WCW TV.
And then Bull retired and actually stayed retired at age 29. In theory, she had 20 years of great work ahead of era. But she got out and is a successful pro-golfer.
Seriously. Aja has every possible advantage here and she still can't get the best of Bull. Pretty fitting.
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Post by elliott on Mar 17, 2020 16:34:06 GMT -5
Edit: This may come off as an Aja Kong hit piece, but I think she's a top 50 worker of all time. So this should be viewed as a Bull Nakano love fest. Additionally, I asked when we talked about Aja vs Bull last year for post 2004 Aja Kong recommendations excluding the Satomura matches as I've seen those. vs Hikaru Shida 9/17/18 was the only match anyone came up with. Would love any additional recommendations from this 16 year period.
Alright, I figured I'd go through the categories.
Cap's Categories:
Top Matches - Bull. Its almost certainly true that Aja has more MOTYC or MOTNs by virtue of having 20 more years of a career than Bull. I say "almost certainly" because I have hardly seen any post 2004 Aja, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt & assume the last 15 years have been full of great matches. I mean, I have no problem calling any of the Kong/Satomura matches "great" but I don't think any of them would make my top 500 GME, let alone a top 100. Personally, I don't think Aja had a match without Bull that is a genuine contender for my top 100 list. I think the Aja/Hotta match is pretty overrated around here, but even if I conceded that is a strong top 100 Contender, Bull still has more top tier matches. I think the Kong/Kansai & Kong/Toyota matches are much better than Kong/Satomura & at least a couple of those matches I don't think would look weird on a top 100, but they aren't matches I would consider viable candidates for my list.
The strongest top 100 GME candidates Aja Kong had were: Kong & Kimura vs Bull & Grizzly 8/19/90 Kong vs Bull Cage Match 11/14/90 Kong vs Bull 4/25/92 Kong vs Bull 11/26/92 ThunderQueen 7/31/93 Kong vs Hotta 1/24/94 Kong & Bull vs Hokuto & Kandori Queendom 3/27/94
I included Kong/Hotta as a nod to this board's consensus, but I don't consider it a top 100 contender. Aside from that, Aja isn't the best worker in any of these matches. Bull is leading the way in all of those 90-92 matches. Aja is awesome in ThunderQueen, but that's the Mayumi Ozaki apex. Queendom is more about Hokuto & Kandori, though Kong is great in it and plays an irreplaceable role...but she's at best the 3rd best worker in that match. I don't want to get too hung up on the idea that Aja wasn't the best worker in any of her top matches. She was someone I consider a great wrestler by 1992, so its not like these were all Bret/Davey carry jobs. But I felt it is an observation worth noting.
Bull's top tier top 100 GME contenders are: Bull & Dump vs Crush Gals 5/15/85 Bull & Dump vs Crush Gals 10/10/85 Bull & Dump vs Jumping Bomb Angels 1/9/87 Bull & Grizzly vs Jungle Jack 8/19/90 Bull vs Kong Cage Match 11/14/90 Bull vs Kong 4/25/92 Bull vs Kong 11/26/92 Bull vs Devil 4/18/93 Bull & Aja vs Hokuto & Kandori 3/27/94 Queendom Bull vs Kandori Chain Match 7/14/94
Now, its worth noting that Bull isn't the best worker in those 80s matches. She's very very good in them & plays her role well, but to be honest is the 4th most important person in all of those matches and I wanted to mention that because I did note it above in Aja's matches. Outside of those 80s matches, Bull's the superior wrestler by far in all of those 90-92 matches. The Queendom match Bull's in the same situation as Aja. She's awesome in the match & plays her role perfectly & is an irreplaceable factor for what makes that match great. But Hokuto & Kandori were the centerpiece & stars of the match. Really the best way to put it for the the Queendom tag is Hokuto & Kandori are tied for the best worker in the match & Bull & Aja are tied for the 2nd best worker in the match. And its at worst a top 5 match in history.
The Devil & Kandori matches are examples of peers having all time classics. Kandori is a top 50 all time candidate & one of the best big match wrestlers of her generation. Bull & Devil I consider top 20 all time and are two of the 3 best female wrestlers ever (Hokuto is the other). But you have to consider the fact that Bull, Devil & Kandori weren't regular opponents. Bull & Devil worked together in the 80s, but Devil retired from AJW in 1987 before going to JWP. So they hadn't worked together in at least 6 years, and never had a truly competitive singles match as peers. That they were able to produce a match of that quality is remarkable. Even if they were regular opponents it would be remarkable and a MOTDC. As a fresh match-up that is a mind-blowing achievement of a match.
Bull's 2nd rung of great matches probably isn't as deep as Aja's due to circumstances beyond her control. While Aja exited the Nakano feud & went on to feud with Kansai & eventually Toyota over the WWWA belt, Bull's defining post-Aja rival was Alundra Blayze. When given the opportunity with actual opponents, Bull always delivered.
Bull vs Itsuki Yamazaki 5/7/83 Bull & Dump vs Jumping Bomb Angels 8/22/85 Bull & Condor Saito vs Yumi Ogura & Kazue Nagahori 2/15/86 Bull vs Yasuko Ishiguro 2/26/87 Bull vs Toyota 7/21/90 Bull vs Hokuto 1/4/91 Bull & Kyoko vs Jungle Jack 6/18/91 Bull vs Kyoko 9/7/91 Bull & Hokuto vs Jungle Jack 12/9/91 Bull vs Akira Hokuto Cage Match 7/30/92 Bull & Aja & Kyoko vs Yamada & Hotta & Yoshida 9/15/92 Bull & Hokuto vs Aja & Kyoko 11/2/92 Bull & Takao vs Kandori & Hozumi 11/9/93 Bull vs Kyoko 1/24/94
This isn't the deepest list by any means and I won't say its complete either as there are some things I still want to rewatch during the pandemic. But it should tell us some things:
1. The 80s AJW mid-card is very underrepresented in terms of footage. Has anyone even heard of Yasuko Ishiguro? She looks awesome and that is a badass borderline UWF1.0 style match based around mat work and stiff strikes.
2. From the smattering of footage of 80s AJW mid-card stuff we have, Bull looks really good from the start. She's not the all time great she would become, but you can clearly see the potential right away. This is a distinct difference from the pre-Aja Erika Shishido footage and even early Aja footage. In limited footage, Bull's got good out of control brawls, submission/strike based matches, and more traditional Joshi workratey matches.
3. There are glaringly no big singles matches against Chigusa, Jaguar, Devil, Lioness, or Yukari Ohmori. Along with Dump, these women were the top stars of the era and some of the best wrestlers of all time (and Lioness Asuka). Bull didn't get to work competitive singles matches with these great veterans of the previous generation. Aja and her peers like Hokuto, Toyota, Hotta, and Kyoko all got to grow up learning how to work big time main event matches against an in her prime Bull Nakano.
4. She really fades into the background during the Interpromotional era post DreamRush. She is still one of the very best wrestlers in the world regardless of gender and she delivers when given the opportunity like vs Devil, vs Kandori, 1/94 vs Kyoko and Queendom. But at DreamRush she definitively passed the torch to Aja & took a step back so the next generation could step up (and they certainly did).
For example, AJW Wrestlemarinpiad V 10/9/93 Tokyo Bay Hall Drawing 6000. This was a big show right in the middle of the interpromotional era. Bull was less than a year removed from the longest reign of the WWWA title in history. Still capable of classic matches. And still capable of carrying her weight in big time main event matches. Here's the card: Aja Kong vs Akira Hokuto Dynamite Kansai vs Toshiyo Yamada Manami Toyota vs Mayumi Ozaki Devil Masami vs Kyoko Inoue Bull Nakano & Reggie Bennett vs Yumiko Hotta & Minami Suzuka Shinobu Kandori & Yasha Kurenai vs Sakie Hasegawa & Takako Inoue Cutie Suzuki, Plum Mariko, Hikari Fukuoka & Boirshoi Kid vs Mima Shimoda, Kaoru Io, Chikako Shiratori & Chaparita Asari Etsuko Mita, Tomoko Watanabe & Numatchi vs Mikiko Futagami, Mitsuko Endoh & Carol Midori
To be sure, that is a fucking loaded card (like many Joshi cards at the time), but on a big interpromotional card, Bull is in an AJW vs AJW match that is at best the 5th most interesting match on the card (or 6th depending on how you think that Kandori match sounds, hint: looks fun!)
We can pick any number of cards like that in the interpromotinonal era and find this all time great Bull Nakano buried in the undercard.
My recommendation when looking past the absolute top tier Bull or Aja matches is to compare 1/24/94 Bull vs Kyoko Inoue and 8/30/96 Aja vs Kyoko Inoue. Similar opponent & setting. Everyone is grown up. Comparing the 1990 Bull/Toyota to 1995 Aja/Toyota matches or are less instructive. You could probably look at something like Bull/Hokuto 1/91 and compare it to the later 99/00 Aja/Satomura matches.
But this is about "Top Matches." So looking at their absolute top tier, if forced to rank the top 10 Bull Nakano & Aja Kong matches my list would look like this: 1. Bull & Aja vs Hokuto & Kandori 3/27/94 Queendom 2. Bull & Dump vs Crush Gals 10/10/85 3. Bull vs Aja Cage Match 11/14/90 4. Bull vs Devil 4/18/93 JWP 5. Bull & Grizzly vs Aja & Bison 8/19/90 6. Bull vs Kandori Chain Match 7/14/94 LLPW 7. Bull vs Aja 11/26/92 DreamRush 8. Bull & Dump vs Crush Gals 5/15/85 9. Bull & Dump vs Jumping Bomb Angels 1/9/87 10. Bull vs Aja 4/25/92
Aja is in 5 of the matches. Bull is in all 10. Their two matches in 1990 are special because Bull made them special. Aja has more to do in the later ones, but is never actually better than Bull in any of their matches against each other. All of these are top 100 Contenders at worst, GME at best.
Versatility - Bull. Between the cage matches and the chain match, Bull has to be the best Joshi gimmick match worker ever? Or at least a candidate. Obviously one of the best brawlers ever, great working big epic spectacles, workrate sprints, mat based matches, long title matches. There's nothing Bull couldn't do in the ring.
Consistency - Bull was literally never bad. She wasn't always a best in the world candidate. But even in her rookie year she had a good match with fellow young wrestler & future Jumping Bomb Angel Itsuki Yamazaki. During her prime, she was always the best wrestler in the match she was in. Once Aja grew up and found herself, she was always great. But Bull never had a stretch like the pre-Aja gimmick Erika Shishido era where Aja looked like she had really limited potential. Bull in 1985 might have been light years away from 1990 Bull Nakano. But she was still clearly on her way to becoming a great wrestler. There's no inkling of 1995 Aja Kong in 1988 Erika Shishido.
I actually don't mean this to sound so critical of Aja. Her growth from where she was pre-Aja to the start of Aja to peak Aja is truly remarkable and she deserves all the credit for working her ass off and turning herself into an all time great worker. Aja wasn't a Bull or Kobashi or Akiyama or Daniel Bryan or Jumbo who got it right from the start. For whatever I've said about Aja having advantages over Bull due to era, opponents etc is true. But it should be noted that when Bull passed the torch, Aja delivered and that is a credit to her.
Charisma/"It" Factor" - Bull. Aja is cool, there's no denying that. But I'm going Bull, easily. I think Bull has the best look in the history of wrestling other than maybe folks like Andre the Giant. Even then, I'm not totally convinced Bull isn't the answer. The Classic Bull look with the tall hair sprayed hair, the spider-webbed face paint, the Megadeath tank tops etc is amazingly cool. But I remember Loss at PWO once said he thought that Bull's look as Dump's #2 in the 80s was even cooler than 90s Bull. She had the half shaved head (one of only like 10 people to ever pull off that hair cut), the leather jackets, she would change up the face-paint. She pulled off the girl corrupted by the big evil role extraordinarily well.
Promos - Probably Bull.
Elevating Others - Bull. Bull's entire run as the Ace of AJW she had to elevate the Aja/Hokuto/Toyota/Yamada/Hotta/Kyoko generation as workers and as stars. Bull is one of the standouts in history here. Look a 1990 Aja Kong match and look at where she was in 11/92 after her 2+ years of feuding with Aja. How did the post-Aja Joshi generations do?
Offense - Bull. I've said before Bull's top rope leg drop is one of my 3 favorite finishes ever. The rolling version from the top rope is awesome as well. Bull also threw the absolute best lariats of any Joshi worker by far. She would do a moonsault and tope in addition to the more standard power-moves like powerbombs, german suplexes etc. I also dig her jumping thrust kick. Aja of course was an awesome offensive wrestler. One of the best of her or any generation. But I don't think she built to her moves as well. Aja was the master of brutal cut-offs. But Bull was better at building to an ultimate crescendo. Aja would often do too much and leave you wondering "so why was that the big bomb that ended the match?" Bull's big time finishes were more definitive because she builds to her offense so much better.
Selling - Bull. In spite of its overall stylistic reputation, there are some great Joshi sellers. Hokuto, Chigusa, Ozaki, Kudo, Devil, Kandori & Bull are always the first names that come to mind. Aja not as much because I think she often bumped around too much for her role and I think she was more prone than someone like Bull or Devil to pick up her opponent & force them into no-selling to do more bomb trading & counters. I don't think Aja was bad by any means. And compared to a lot of her peers, she was great. But I don't think shes in that top tier with Bull & the others I named.
Rewatch Valley - OMG Bull. I first learned about Bull & Aja due to WWF in 94/95. I remember being utterly terrified of both of them as a kid and fearing for Alundra Blayze's life. When I first started getting into Japanese wrestling & Joshi a few years later, I definitely preferred Aja. Her matches were closer in style to the 90s AJPW matches that I loved than Bull's were. Stuff like Kong/Kansai or Kong/Toyota and later Kong/Satomura was worked very much like the best stuff from the pillars: extremely stiff striking with hot moves and exciting finishing stretches full of big bombs & nearfalls. There was always sudden & brutal counters and fast paced back & forth sequences throughout the matches that made her 20+minute matches fly by. She would do dives and take enormous bumps which was important in an era when larger wrestlers were derided as lazy/fat whatever. When you grow up watching big guys Earthquake, grow into a mid-late 90s "smart fan" culture, larger wrestlers taking big bump, doing dives and working a fast pace were highly valued attributes.
Now as I've grown older, watched a ton more wrestling, I've come to appreciate the things Bull excels at. The wild out of control brawling matches of the Dump vs Crush Gals era or 1990 Bull/Aja feud have become the style of wrestling I most prefer. I'm finding stuff like Kong/Kansai that is built around counters and trading big bombs more and more tedious. When I watch more technical world title style matches, I'm more interested in selling and logic than how many 2.99 kickouts there are. I'm 100% more impressed with Bull Nakano slowing down 1994 Kyoko Inoue than Aja Kong keeping up with 1995 Manami Toyota. Something like Bull vs Devil 1993 has gotten more and more impressive for me with each viewing over the decades. With Aja's non-Bull matches, I feel like they lose a little something on each viewing.
What's most telling, is that there's a 16 year stretch from probably 2004-present day where I've seen maybe 6 total Aja Kong matches. I have no doubt she's awesome when given the chance in this era. But at this point I'm more interested in digging up a random undercard Nakano tag match from her phased out post-Ace run than trying to find long modern Aja Kong matches.
Bonus Elliott's Question (Brody vs Nigel or best work associated with a crappy wrestler) Bull. I mean, Bull turned not good wrestler Aja Kong into holy shit great level wrestler Aja Kong by sheer force of will. I could come up with more examples of Aja's worst work associated with an all time great wrestler than best work associated with a crappy wrestler. Aja almost always got to work with a great opponent.
Bull - 9 Aja - 0 Draw - 0
Feels right. Bull was better.
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Post by bossrock on Mar 28, 2020 20:19:01 GMT -5
Just watched the Dream Rush match between these two. It's only fitting that after years of trying to kill each other and driving each other to tears because of how much they hate each other, it ends with them in tears and embracing.
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Post by elliott on Mar 29, 2020 1:30:23 GMT -5
That match is so great. Love the finish. Did you watch the April match?
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Post by bossrock on Mar 29, 2020 7:03:42 GMT -5
It's on deck. Thank God for Roy Lucier's Youtube account.
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Post by Kadaveri on Feb 21, 2021 18:31:48 GMT -5
To add to Bull Nakano literally always being good, here is what I'm pretty sure is Bull's first time ever wrestling as a babyface > Bull Nakano vs Dump Matsumoto 5/1986 Barely 5 minutes into the match a crowd that usually despises her are chanting her name. Watch how she builds anticipation for the vertical suplex before she finally hits it so it gets a big cheer. She's just so good.
Edit to add: She is 18 years old in this match.
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