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Post by Cap on Mar 27, 2020 7:19:24 GMT -5
I don't think Kobashi has come up since we started slightly more detailed wrestler comparisons. There aren't a lot of wrestlers that I think would top him for me, Funk could be one of them.
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Post by elliott on Mar 27, 2020 22:44:51 GMT -5
Funk by any metric. He's even a better underdog babyface in AJPW.
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Post by bossrock on Mar 27, 2020 23:40:50 GMT -5
Top Matches
Funk is in arguably the greatest North American match ever (GAB '89). It was number 7 on my ballot. But Kobashi was in 5 of the 6 matches above that. Was also a major player in the greatest match ever (6/9/95) and my pick for the greatest singles match ever (1/20/97)
Winner: Kobashi
Versatility
The little I've seen of Funk's 70's work largely bores me, but he's still one of the most versatile wrestlers ever. Comedy, brawling, and death matches galore. Incredible babyface and maybe the greatest heel ever. You sort of know what to expect from Kobashi every time you see him.
Winner: Funk
Consistency
Not being a fan of Funk's NWA title match stuff hurts him for me, but his greatness in the 80's and 90's is pretty undeniable. Still, I would argue Kobashi was in the conversation for best in the world from at least '93 to '04. And he produced more stuff I enjoy than Funk.
Winner: Kobashi
Charisma/”It” Factor
Incredibly tough. Funk was terrific in garnering sympathy as a face. He could also effortlessly alternate between dastardly and comical as a heel. He was magnetic. Kobashi was a career babyface but he was one of the greatest ever. He could be melodramatic, but he probably straddled that line without overdoing it better than anyone. Funk might be second in that regard. Still Funk's ability to draw in a crowd as a face or heel can't be denied. Too close to call.
Winner: Draw
Promos
I normally don't count promos as I try to keep this strictly in-ring related, but Funk is probably my favorite promo ever. "Jerry Lawler...is the son of a jackass. He is a lover of chickens". The greatest line in any promo ever.
Winner: Funk
Elevating Others
Much of Kobashi's early 90's work saw him elevate his peers in defeat. He would give them hell while still losing most major matches. And while I don't think every single one of this Noah title matches warranted a near 30 minute run time, he was terrific in making them look valiant in defeat just as he made the people who beat him in the 90's look. Meanwhile, Funk did a great job making folks like the Sheik, Abdullah, Brody, and Hansen look like monsters in AJPW while bumping, stooging, and selling for faces in America. Both guys knew how to make their opponents look great in different ways. Too close to call.
Winner: Draw
Offense
Kobashi beats everyone in this regard. Greatest maximalist wrestler ever yet never became a "get my shit in" wrestler. Had the most varied offense ever yet knew when and how often to use each move. Everyone knows Kobashi only used the Burning Hammer 7 times, but how often did he use the Orange Crush? Even as he became more reliant on chops due to his body breaking down, he still knew that only certain matches called for certain moves. So yeah, Kobashi is the greatest offensive wrestler ever. End of story.
Winner: Kobashi
Selling
Everyone calls Funk one of the best sellers ever. He was, but in all honesty his tendency to chew the scenery keeps him out of the top spot for me (his WWC stuff in particular comes to mind). Now, Kobashi was melodramatic and did plenty of fighting spirit spots that weren't always called for. But stuff like his knee selling in 6/9/95 and the Jun '98 matches have always been 2 of my favorite selling performances ever. At the end of the day, no wrestler is perfect and has had at least one instance of dropping, over-selling or not selling enough in their careers. I just lean more towards Kobashi as the best seller ever.
Winner: Kobashi
Rewatch Value
Kobashi is my favorite wrestler ever, so that probably tells you who's going to win this. Still, the Empty Arena match with Lawler is one of my most revisited matches.
Winner: Kobashi
Elliott’s Bonus Question (Brody/Nigel or Best Work Associated With a Bad Wrestler)
Tough one as Kobashi tended to work with great wrestlers and there's a lot of Funk's catalog I haven't seen. With Funk you have great singles and tag matches with Brody who, while I don't think was terrible, wasn't exactly very good either. With Kobashi I can't think of a single instance where he worked with someone who was downright bad, but limited or average at best (Mike Awesome and Chono). I'll call it a draw.
Winner: Draw
Kobashi: 5
Funk: 2
Draw: 3
Like most things, a lot of this comes down to style preference. I love Funk, but Kobashi is my favorite wrestler ever. He represents most everything I enjoy in wrestling. Still, a lot of Kobashi's strengths are areas Funk thrived in as well, just in different ways. And criticisms I throw at Funk for being too over-the-top are criticisms you can easily level at Kobashi. But when it comes to offense, peak performances, and stylistic preference, Kobashi is my pick for greatest ever.
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Post by elliott on Mar 27, 2020 23:53:35 GMT -5
Re: Best offense ever. When did Kobashi ever do an airplane spin with a ladder on his head?  |
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Post by shrike02 on Mar 28, 2020 1:03:07 GMT -5
Funk and it's not that close, although I certainly rank Kobashi highly overall. Funk has longevity, great as both face and heel, has his share of great matches ... he's always going to be a top five all-time guy on my list and Kobashi is "only" top twenty.
And yes Funk has more charisma!
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Post by elliott on Mar 28, 2020 18:25:00 GMT -5
Counterpoint: All of Kobashi's top matches are worked in the same style against a relatively small group of opponents. If you asked 100 people what Funk's best match was, you'd likely see matches named against Flair, Hansen, Jumbo, Lawler, Foley, Sabu, Onita, Harley, Gilbert, etc. If you asked 100 people what Kobashi's best match was, its just gonna come down to a race between Misawa matches. Winner: Terry Funk You haven't watched Funks vs Abdullah & Sheik matches yet have you? Is this unique to Terry Funk in the 70s, or do you have a general distaste of 70s title matches? I would totally understand if someone just found 70s title match style like Terry/Jumbo or Baba/Robinson boring. On the other hand, I can't imagine watching Funks vs Abby/Sheik matches and being bored. Those are some of the most compelling matches ever. I agree with everything else you say. Nobody is more versatile than Terry Funk. However, I would say that Kobashi was likely the most versatile of his peers by virtue of being able to execute so much so well in the ring. Winner: Terry Funk Counterpoint: Funk's cleaner more technical 70s matches are awesome. On top of his greatness in the 80s, 90s and 00s. You could really push it back to 91 for when Kobashi as best in the world was reasonable. He finished 3rd in the WON Most Outstanding voting in 1991 behind Liger & Hase and 3rd again in 1992 behind Liger & Manami Toyota. Kobashi debuted 2/88 and was in his first truly great match by July 89 (Kobashi & Jumbo vs Hansen & Tenryu). Kobashi was great by the time Tenryu left at the latest. But whichever way you slice it, its not as long as Funk. This is also a close one because both of these guys always worked harder than they had to. Effort was never an issue with these guys. You could always count on them to try and put on an entertaining match every time out. That seems like a pretty basic quality but we all know it isn't. And given their styles, injury history, charisma and status, these guys easily could have coasted but chose not to because they loved performing. Winner: Funk Counterpoint: American Texan Terry Funk was the most beloved babyface in Japan....And old fart NWA Champ from the 70s Terry Funk was the most beloved babyface in cool/hip 90s promotion ECW. And in between he was one of the greatest heels ever. And he was in Road House. Winner: Terry Funk Yes! There's also a promo from Puerto Rico where he threatens Invader I by saying "I'm gonna take my thumb and pop out your eye!" That is my all time dream match that isn't on tape. And there's this: "My father, many years ago, died in my arms after a professional wrestling match. I don't remember a lot of what happened right afterward, and I don't really remember the funeral. But I do remember visiting the grave frequently, and when I was all alone, just me and the Texas wind, on the tombstone were the letters F-U-N-K. I vowed at that moment to make that name synonymous with wrestling, and that's what I'm going to do, Ricky Steamboat. Even if I have to step on you or your half-breed, pig-nosed, punk kid to do it." Whoa. Winner: Terry Funk over almost everyone Counterpoint: Just stop it. Sheik, Abdullah, Brody, Hansen Misawa, Kawada, Taue, Hansen Now I love Abdullah and I don't like 90s AJPW, but one of those groups is not like the other. Then you start thinking about people like Onita, Foley, Sabu, shit all of ECW. Any number of indy's his name has lent credibility to. Terry puts people over in the ring as well as anyone ever but he also elevates everything he is a part of just by being Terry Funk. He is one of the most important strictly wrestler non-promoters in the last 60 years. Winner: Terry Funk Counterpoint: See aforementioned post about the ladder airplane spin. There's also the time Funk put a plastic bag around Flair's head and tried to murder him. Kenta Kobashi is the greatest maximalist wrestler ever? How can that be when even as you say Kenta's body started breaking down so he started to rely more on chops. Terry's body started breaking down and he was like "I'm gonna start doing a moonsault." Credit to Kobashi for doing the rolling cradle into the 90s. Winner: Terry Funk Counterpoint: Just. No. I do think it is worth noting that Funk works differently in WWC than he does in AJPW or in the Houston footage or even Memphis. Funk knew how to turns the volume up or down based on where he was. You see the same out of Hansen in WWC. He's turned up to 100 there. Winner: Terry Funk Counterpoint: Terry Funk is my favorite ever so yada yada yada. Still, the July 1993 match with Hansen is one of my most revisited matches. Winner: Funk But seriously, Kobashi is one of the most rewatchable wrestlers ever. That Hansen match is genuinely in the top 10 matches I've watched most in my life. Even with my general distaste for post Jumbo 90s AJPW & then NOAH, Kobashi has remained someone I really enjoy watching. Counterpoint: I dunno, I thought Kobashi had great chemistry with Kawada. |
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Post by bossrock on Mar 28, 2020 19:59:41 GMT -5
Your rebuttal did not disappoint! And yeah I will clarify that it's the 70's NWA title stuff that is specifically not my cup of tea. I THINK I've seen all of the 70's tags with Abdullah and Sheik. Dory takes up too much time in those matches but yeah Terry is great in those. |
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Post by KB8 on Mar 28, 2020 20:18:33 GMT -5
I should do this in more detail (along with Eddie/Bryan) and I say this as someone who admittedly isn't the biggest Kobashi - or really 90s All Japan - fan, but I think I'd go Funk in every category bar offence. Big Match Kobashi had as much offensive firepower as anybody. Though him not doing a ladder-assisted airplane spin is a salient point, tbf.
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Post by microstatistics on Mar 28, 2020 23:35:15 GMT -5
Counterpoint: All of Kobashi's top matches are worked in the same style against a relatively small group of opponents. If you asked 100 people what Funk's best match was, you'd likely see matches named against Flair, Hansen, Jumbo, Lawler, Foley, Sabu, Onita, Harley, Gilbert, etc. If you asked 100 people what Kobashi's best match was, its just gonna come down to a race between Misawa matches. This might apply to Misawa and Kawada (though their fans would disagree) but not Kobashi. Yes, the Misawa matches are there but he also has matches with Akiyama, Takayama, Can-Am (tags), Honda, Samoa Joe, Marufuji, Y. Ogawa, Hansen, Williams, Ace, Omori, Tenryu (tags), Jumbo, Vader, Nagata, Sasaki etc. Not saying I like all those matchups but many are Top 100 contenders for a lot of people. And the variety is there. Kobashi vs. Y. Ogawa is nothing like the usual King's Road main event. Sure there is nothing quite as distinct as Funk vs. Orton and Funk vs. Hansen but that's more of a versatility argument. |
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Post by elliott on Mar 29, 2020 0:05:16 GMT -5
Top matches is more about the absolute upper tier. Would anyone argue that Kobashi vs Ace or Nagata or Omori etc is one of their 5 best Kobashi matches? At least that's my reading of "top matches." There is less consensus about what Terry's absolute best couple of matches are.
I do agree with the general point that Kobashi had a lot of great matches with a lot of different people.
The point about versatility of top matches is the point. Its more impressive to have all time great matches as different as Funk/Race and Funk/Lawler.
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Post by microstatistics on Mar 29, 2020 0:11:22 GMT -5
Different people consider Kobashi vs. Akiyama, Takayama, Ogawa, Joe, Honda, Hansen, Can-Am all time classics. It's not just Misawa for absolute top tier.
Funk wins versatility though, no arguments there.
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Post by elliott on Mar 29, 2020 0:16:37 GMT -5
I need to revisit the Honda match for sure.
There are a couple of Taue/Kobashi matches I like more than the Joe/Akiyama matches. But I am weird.
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Post by microstatistics on Mar 29, 2020 0:22:39 GMT -5
The Honda match is interesting because people lower on Kobashi tend to like it the most. Some call it a Honda carryjob, which I vehemently disagree with to say the least.
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Post by bossrock on Mar 29, 2020 7:08:25 GMT -5
Counterpoint: All of Kobashi's top matches are worked in the same style against a relatively small group of opponents. If you asked 100 people what Funk's best match was, you'd likely see matches named against Flair, Hansen, Jumbo, Lawler, Foley, Sabu, Onita, Harley, Gilbert, etc. If you asked 100 people what Kobashi's best match was, its just gonna come down to a race between Misawa matches. This might apply to Misawa and Kawada (though their fans would disagree) but not Kobashi. Yes, the Misawa matches are there but he also has matches with Akiyama, Takayama, Can-Am (tags), Honda, Samoa Joe, Marufuji, Y. Ogawa, Hansen, Williams, Ace, Omori, Tenryu (tags), Jumbo, Vader, Nagata, Sasaki etc. Not saying I like all those matchups but many are Top 100 contenders for a lot of people. And the variety is there. Kobashi vs. Y. Ogawa is nothing like the usual King's Road main event. Sure there is nothing quite as distinct as Funk vs. Orton and Funk vs. Hansen but that's more of a versatility argument. I love that match for precisely that reason. And yeah of all the Pillars, Kobashi probably has the most variety of opponents (although Kawada's post-Pillar run adds to his resume). |
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Post by Cap on Mar 29, 2020 10:46:57 GMT -5
I'm glad i paired these two.
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