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Post by Cap on Feb 17, 2020 19:43:12 GMT -5
Felt this one was worth coming back to. I'm shocked to see it is so one sided. This poll is who had better matches, that's why. That is a good point. This was posted before we started approaching these comparisons differently. If it were just about who produced better matches, I'd probably still pick Misawa. I mean Flair is no slouch in the great match dept, but I still think Misawa probably has him beat. I will still probably do the broader comparison at some point.
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Post by elliott on Feb 17, 2020 20:34:08 GMT -5
Felt this one was worth coming back to. I'm shocked to see it is so one sided. This poll is who had better matches, that's why. Right and the answer is Flair.
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Post by nintendologic on Feb 18, 2020 1:12:55 GMT -5
Rating Flair/Kerry as better than Misawa/Kawada is quite the take.
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Post by elliott on Feb 18, 2020 4:35:04 GMT -5
Bossrock said: Its tricky. Windham I still think of as an all time great in some respects. I ranked him 31st during GWE right behind Aja & Bull. A lot would change if I were to do a GWE list again, but I imagine Windham would still place in the top 50. Gordy I had ranked 83rd and would feel pretty comfortable saying he's somewhere between like 80 and 140 all time? So both are definitely at the level that I would consider "great." The problem is with their tools as young workers, you'd think they would go on to become GOATC. So you always kind of expected more than you got. Less so in Windham's case. We can point to plenty of great performances and matches with him in a variety of different settings and he did have a good career. But Windham was the closest thing to an American Jumbo in that era in terms of size and athletic ability and really should have taken the torch from Flair as the great US worker of his generation. Gordy is like the king of the good-very good match. My issue was you always heard about the rep and then for me the first time I can remember seeing him was RWTL 88 where he's amazing and I figured he's like that all the time. And he's just not. Certainly great at times and there are some matches of his that I love like vs Killer Khan, Kerry, Chris Adams and young Dr Death off the top of my head. But it still feels like he left something on the table even on nights when he was working hard. Like he didn't have an extra gear. I hate just saying "Drugs and Injuries" because that's so easy. But with their talent level, they really should have been people we talk about for greatest US workers ever. Rating Flair/Kerry as better than Misawa/Kawada is quite the take. I understand that but I've been pretty vocal about loving the Flair/Kerry match-up and not loving 4 Pillars era AJPW and especially not loving Kawada. So it shouldn't be too surprising. I was also focused on making all of those comparisons as singles rivalries. Of course when you bring tags & 6 man matches into the equation it gets a little trickier. Flair and Kerry had awesome matches with each other in Mid South, World Class, Hawaii, and St Louis. When people talk about the NWA Champ traveling to various territories to take on the local hero, I think of Flair vs Kerry first. That they were able to take it on the road outside of Kerry's home territory is that much more impressive. Its sort of the defining territorial feud in my mind. At least for what we have on film. Much like many people probably think of Misawa/Kawada when they think "Triple Crown."
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Post by Cap on Feb 18, 2020 8:20:16 GMT -5
Yeah... Elliot preferring Flair/Kerry to Misawa/Kawada doesn't surprise me in the least. There is no end to his delusional hatred of Kawada. He is a lunatic, but he is our lunatic.
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Post by elliott on Feb 18, 2020 19:56:49 GMT -5
Von Erichs vs AJPW is fun to think about. Fritz < Baba Kerry > Misawa Kevin < Kobashi David < Taue Lance > Kawada
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Post by Cap on Feb 18, 2020 20:30:15 GMT -5
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Post by elliott on Feb 18, 2020 20:39:18 GMT -5
Leave it to "tough guy" Kawada to way oversell some chops early in a match đ
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Post by Cap on Feb 18, 2020 22:14:03 GMT -5
Kawada is a generous worker. He made that kids career that night... really put him over as a threat.
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Post by elliott on Feb 18, 2020 22:29:02 GMT -5
Hahaha!
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Post by Cap on Mar 7, 2020 8:57:29 GMT -5
Top Matches
While it is close, especially if we are thinking about matches beyond the top 100, I still have to give this to Misawa. To me, this one comes down to how much one likes the Kings Road style. Like anything that gets a lot of hype or is virtually universally loved, it has became somewhat divisive. I still love it and it still has a lot of representation on my list. Flair has 3 matches on my list and Misawa has 9. That really isnât representative of the gap between them in this regard though. Misawa benefits greatly from having a lot of matches on that list with who I would call the greatest big match worker ever, Kobashi. I only have a FRACTION of each manâs career rated, but its roughly the same amount of matches. If you look at everything I have 4.5 stars and above, its dead even and Iâd bet money that Flair pulls ahead as I rate more. So it is really close, but I think when you have 9 matches in my personal running top 100, you get the nod here.
Winner: Misawa
Versatility
This one is sort of tough for me. I think Misawa is a better tag worker (though that is not at all a knock of Flair, who is a very good tag worker too). However, Flair worked in more places with a wider variety of opponents in a wider variety of gimmicks over a longer amount of time and he made it work. So, Iâll give this to Flair.
Winner: Flair
Consistency
This one goes to Flair pretty easily for me. I think Misawaâs top work is about as good as it gets, but I am admittedly in that camp that that is underwhelmed by some of Misawaâs match-ups that on paper should have been all timers (look at you, Misawa v Hansen). Flair â if I am to believe the myth â didnât take that many nights off, even when the cameras werenât rolling.
Winner: Flair
Charisma/âItâ Factor
Flair. Misawa gets points here, but the list of folks who could even be considered alongside Flair in this category is pretty short.
Winner: Flair
Promos
I only give this to someone when there is a language barrier for one of the wrestlers when the person winning is elite or the person loosing is actively bad. Flair is elite.
Winner: Flair
Elevating Others
This one is tough. I agree with Elliot that Flair did this really well for a really long time. At the same time, I really believe Misawa deserves credit in the elevation of the four pillars. The pillars also helped make Misawa of course, but being the ace for so long canât be undersold. Iâll still go with Flair.
Winner: Flair
Offense
This one goes to Misawa for me. Flair had great offense, but it wasnât his real bread and butter. You wouldnât know it by looking at him, but Misawa was an offensive monster.
Winner: Misawa
Selling
THIS was Flairâs bread and butter. There is something to said for Misawaâs brand of selling, but give me Flair bleed and begging and screaming all day.
Winner: Flair
Rewatch Value
I love Misawa, but honestly, Iâd take Flair here. It probably comes down to versatility. I love me some 90s AJPW and 00 NOAH, but Flair near the top of that âwho would I want if I could only watch one wrestlerâs work question.
Winner: Flair
Elliottâs Bonus Question (Brody/Nigel or Best Work Associated With a Bad Wrestler)
Yeah, this has to be Flair, right? Misawaâs best work was always again other GREAT wrestlers. Flair worked well almost everyone. I remember liking his matches with HHH late in his career way way more than I should have, so Iâll count that.
Winner: Flair
Final Count Flair â 7.5 Misawa - 2
This one really shows how limited this project is. I stand by my vote of Misawa based on how I originally asked the question, but great matches is a small slice of wrestling. Flair would place higher on a GWE list for me. I suppose I am a little surprised it is this lopsided, but I shouldnât be if I really looked at the categories.
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