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Post by Cap on Dec 8, 2017 10:36:04 GMT -5
Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW - 2/28/1993)
I am going to be interested in not only how this stacks up against Hansen/Kobashi but also how this stacks up against Kawada/Misawa matches. I love this match. it is absolutely brutal, it builds well, and they ebb and flow of the match is so natural. Hansen falling out of the ring after hitting a murder lariat is one of the greatest spots in wrestling history. This is one of those that wears you out. Absolute lock on my list. I am not sure where I will have it though.
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Post by elliott on Dec 8, 2017 19:00:08 GMT -5
Seconded. Great match that I'm lower on for some reason than basically everyone. I've watched it a bunch waiting for it to click on a MOTDC level for me and it just never has. It has all the elements I like about wrestling including one of the best Hansen lariats ever. If it manages to make my list, it would be down toward the bottom. I don't think it touches Hansen/Kobashi. But I'd still rate it about every Misawa/Kawada match other than 6/94.
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Post by Grimmas on Jan 4, 2018 23:14:42 GMT -5
Fuck yeah! Lariat by Hansen so hard he falls out of the ring. Lariat to the back of the head. Kawada trying to go toe to toe with the unstoppable force of nature in Hansen. FUCKING LOVE THIS!
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Post by bossrock on Jan 15, 2018 10:17:12 GMT -5
When talking about the greatest brawls of all-time, I think you need to include this match. These guys just hammer the shit out of each other in one of the greatest wars of attrition. The leg work gets dropped kinda early, but I get the strategy considering how reliant Kawada is on kicks. Like Grimmas mentioned, the two lariats in this match are phenomenal.
At least a top 50 candidate.
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Post by microstatistics on May 2, 2018 1:33:03 GMT -5
I am probably the only one on the planet who does not really like this match. I've seen it about 3-4 times to get what others see in this match but haven't been able to yet. It's still a good match with good selling, some cool moments and a great final few minutes. But I found the majority of the match to be kind of aimless and disjointed. In my opinion the best brawls ever, even the wildest ones, still maintain some sort of structure or progression. Here I thought everything was jumbled together and so I had trouble getting into it.
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Post by elliott on Oct 1, 2018 20:01:10 GMT -5
Shit, I came in here to say basically exactly what Micro said, only in a much meaner way. I watched this again with the hopes it would click finally after many attempts but I just came away hating it. It needed to be about 10-15 minutes shorter for the way it was worked. Instead I found this to be really long, boring, and aimless. This lacked any real hook other than they're hitting each other really hard. There are a couple of cool spots. Hansen's lariats, especially the one where he flies out of the ring. Hansen's dropkick followed by his shoulderblock tope. Kawada took a couple of nice bumps. They hit each other really hard.
Hansen is one of my two favorite wrestlers ever so I blame Kawada. I watched this with the 4/16/93 Kobashi and 4/11/94 Taue matches and this stood out as a bad match in comparison. There was structure and story to those matches, interesting offense and great selling. Kawada took a couple of really great bumps and his timing on certain spots was spectacular, but overall I didn't enjoy his performance here. He didn't have any sort of approach or strategy and just tried to fight with Hansen. And I get it, Kawada is trying to portray a badass striker dude now. But he sold getting knocked out twice in this match before the finish. Those "Kawada Down!" spots that I used to love now fall flatter than any "Flair Flop" I've ever seen. What sort of "badass" gets knocked out in literally every match?
I kind of can't believe this match has the rep it has. Its like a 2004 HHH level main event match. It wouldn't make my top 100 Stan Hansen matches.
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Post by microstatistics on Oct 1, 2018 21:35:55 GMT -5
Your review is a lot more honest than mine. But yeah once I abandon the pretense, aside from a few cools moments here and there, this is a mess. Glad someone agrees with me.
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Post by elliott on Oct 2, 2018 2:23:32 GMT -5
Your review is a lot more honest than mine. But yeah once I abandon the pretense, aside from a few cools moments here and there, this is a mess. Glad someone agrees with me. I get it. Its hard to rip a classic that has pretty much unanimous praise for 25 years. Shit, i waffled on it earlier saying it was clearly great but not something I had ever viewed as a MOTDC candidate. I'm not sure its clearly good, let alone great. I watched it in a run with the 4/16/93 Kobashi, 4/11/94 Taue, Kandori vs Hokuto II & Bull vs Hokuto and Kawada vs Hansen didn't just stand out as the worst match of the 5, it stood out as maybe the worst match I've watched over the course of the project. They hit each other hard. Hansen's lariat rules. Ok. We could name 1000s of matches where guys hit each other hard. I want to see someone do an earnest side by side comparison with the July Kobashi match explaining in detail why this match is as good or better or in the same universe. Its not. Watching this next to Hansen's less praised matches with Kobashi & Taue I get the sense that Hansen liked Kobashi & Taue more. He gave them more even though he was probably in a position to give more to Kawada. But Kawada couldn't bring a compelling strategy to the match and couldn't help but do dumb shit that Kobashi & Taue were able to avoid.
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Post by jetlag on Apr 27, 2019 2:54:41 GMT -5
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Post by superstarsleeze on Feb 9, 2020 17:13:45 GMT -5
I rewatched this for the first time in like a decade. I loved it, but I actually do see where Elliot and Micro are coming from. There is no real sense of progression. The order of the moves don't really matter. They could have happened in any sequence. Normally, I don't like such an amorphous match narrative. However, only a Sith deals in absolutes and ideologically purity is for fucking hacks. Context matters and each match should be judged on a case by case basis. What this match lacks in structure, it delivers on in the form that it is a great bar room fight. Anytime someone is flat-footed they get caught. It is a constant struggle of perpetual motion. It feels like the fight cloud in Looney Tunes when the Tasmanian Devil is wreaking havoc. They just get caught up in a cloud of dust.I think a structure does form in a really strong Hansen heat segment climaxing with his dive to his outside. I think he gives a lot to Kawada. He makes you feel like he has to go the extra mile to beat Kawada. Kawada for his part shows that he dish out as good as he can take it. I didnt like the last five minutes that much. I thought they tacked on an All Japan epic finish giving Kawada a ton of nearfalls to really drive home the point that Kawada is Hansen's equal even in a loss. However this undermined the bar room brawl story they were going for. Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada - AJPW 2/28/93 Man when Youtube really started to get going in what like 2005/2006, this was one of my favorite matches to watch again and again. I had read so much about All Japan through the late 90s and early 2000s. I was so excited to finally see it and it delivered in spades. Funny though I have not watched this match in a good ten years I would say. It is matches like this that remind me I did have some damn good taste as a teenager. There are two things I remember about his match the beginning and the end. This maybe the greatest bar room brawl in the history of pro wrestling. This is match pretty much universally praised, I have run across some criticisms of it being disjointed and/or aimless. I would replace those words with "chaotic" and "mayhem". This is what a bar room brawl should feel like. If you are caught flat footed, someone is going to bowl you over. Hansen is the king of that. Anytime Kawada thought he was safe, Hansen would just lunge at him and wipe him out. Kawada was fighting for his life in there against Hansen at the outset. There was a great Kawada sell. He was trying to bottle Hansen up with a front facelock, but got clipped by a punch and just went down on his ass. Even though at first, it felt like Kawada was fighting for his life against the human version of the Tasmanian Devil. Soon Kawada turned the tables on him. At first, it was something like ramming his head into the post. You knew Hansen was hurt because he was stomping around outside. Kawada kicks him in the brutally in the ropes. Then it was Kawada going for the leg. This however backfired and inspired Hansen to target Kawada's leg. This was Kawada's second great sell around his knee which is his bread and butter. There was some great verbal selling in this from Kawada. Kawada ends up kicking him off his leg and sending him crashing into the railing. I just need to say this somewhere. This match is crazy fucking stiff. Especially those KICKS! Each men was just rifling the other with these crazy stiff kicks. It sounded like gunshots going off. When Hansen starts going for pinfall attempts after punting Kawada in the mouth a kick I knew Hansen was in trouble. It sounds counter-intuitive. Hansen was not his usual confident self. When Hansen goes for a pin, it is usually over because he has kicked so much ass. Here, Kawada gave him a helluva fight and it feels like Hansen wants to get out of this match with the win rather than mauling his opponent. Hansen's heat segment here feels more like a normal monster heel (big move, cover, big move, cover) less of his style of Bull in the China Shop. Hansen gets more and more desperate. Busting out a dropkick and then A SUICIDE DIVE THROUGH THE BOTTOM ROPE! HOLY SHIT! MARK OUT CITY! You really get the feeling that Kawada has pushed Hansen to the limit forcing him to take these high risks. Hansen wants to slam Kawada on the exposed floor, but Kawada blocks and it is Hansen that is slammed on the floor! Amazing selling from Hansen...clutching the ribs and verbal selling. Kawada hits a stiff clothesline to the back of Hansen's head on the apron. Kawada's clothesline is so wicked. Hansen sells it like he is KO'd. Hansen has really put Kawada over. Kawada knee drop 1-2-No! See these pinfalls feel different. This feels like a man in the dominant position looking to get the win. STRETCH PLUM! A great one at that. Looks really tight! Kawada Kicks! Anyone who says Stan Hansen cant sell, needs to watch this match and tell me that. Kawada SLAPS THE TASTE OUT OF Hansen's mouth. So Hansen punches him right in the face! KAWADA IS OUT COLD! Great Kawada sell #3! Honestly that should have been the finish or shortly thereafter the Western Lariat. My slight criticism of this classic is they go a little overboard in the finish making sure you know that Kawada is just inches away from beating Hansen, but I think it was clear in the body of the match and we didnt 5 minutes to remind us of that. Hansen throws down the defiant Kawada head first multiple times and then delivers a big time Powerbomb! He signals for the Western Lariat, but we get all sort of evasions. This is what I mean it was a little much. Kawada was throwing clotheslines and kicks at Hansen trying to win, but it seemed too much. The one spot I remember from this match that I still think is epic is when Hansen hits that first Lariat and he hits it so hard that he is going flying out of the ring. He was so out of control! You knew the end was nigh. Hansen comes up selling his head so well. Kawada again puts up token offense (his patented Spinning Heel Kick to get two) but Hansen nails him in the back of the head with a right handed lariat. The first twenty minutes of this is just excellent. It is a 5 minute bar room brawl sprint that feels uncooperative, chaotic and like a shoot. Then as each man becomes fatigued it becomes a slugfest first trying to take out each other's legs and then just hitting each other as hard as possible. Hansen sold his ass off for Kawada and really busted out some neat stuff. Kawada felt like a superstar in this match. He was at a disadvantage and turned it around and made you feel like Hansen was the one that was surviving. I think they could have cut out 2-3 minutes of the last 5 minutes of the match and tightened it up. One nearfall for Kawada would have been plenty. Regardless, this match is epic and really shows Hansen's range all in one match and how much of an asskicker Kawada is. ****3/4 As an aside, I feel like the backlash against Kawada has been strong this decade as he was the darling of the 90s and 00s when the All Japan Mythos was being formulated. Someone once said that was because Kawada was JDW's favorite (and JDW was so critical developing the AJPW narrative) and so All Japan 90s became viewed through Kawada's eyes and how he was robbed of being the man on so many occasions. I do think of it as more of a correction. The other Three Corners are being raised up and we are starting to view All Japan through their eyes. Kawada was the heel. He was the evil little brother. He was never meant to be the heir. It was always supposed to be Kobashi and/or Akiyama. NOAH proves this out, but you can say this is speculation because Kawada stayed with All Japan out of loyalty and shrewdness (he must have known Misawa would build around Kobashi & Akiyama). I am definitely a Kobashi guy. I love emotion and passion. No one EVER and I mean EVER does emotion and passion as well as Kobashi. So I could be reading more into this because I want to push the Kobashi narrative.
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Post by nintendologic on Feb 28, 2023 11:39:00 GMT -5
Today is the 30th anniversary of this universally beloved classic, making it as good a day as any to revisit it and figure out whether it'll end up in the top 20 of your ballot or just the top 50.
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Post by silverwidow on Feb 28, 2023 11:54:22 GMT -5
Today is the 30th anniversary of this universally beloved classic Enjoyable bit of sarcasm here.
I wonder if the Misawa-Taue main event holds up better than Hansen-Kawada. That would be an interesting comparison if one were inclined to do it.
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Post by elliott on Feb 28, 2023 12:47:18 GMT -5
Terrible match.
The Misawa vs Taue match is excellent and clearly the better match.
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Post by [Darren] on Feb 28, 2023 13:18:13 GMT -5
I have a fear that the more matches I add to my list the more it’ll look like I’m just copy and pasting Eliott’s. I may include this match in order to make a clearer distinction between the two. I last watched in 2020 and certainly enjoyed it.
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Post by tetsujin on Feb 28, 2023 14:45:20 GMT -5
This is a bit pointless and boring for a larger period of time than you can possibly expect at first. I really like the opening minutes and the ending is godly, but it's so inconsistent that it has never been one of my favourites.
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