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Post by elliott on Mar 20, 2019 2:17:28 GMT -5
What are some notable omissions from your ballots? Any "obvious classics" missing your top 100?
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Post by elliott on Mar 20, 2019 2:22:24 GMT -5
For example I'll have some 90s AJPW that will make my final cut but won't have 6/3/94. Jumbo vs Terry is hanging on by a thread. Hart/Austin (both matches) didn't make my final 125. Etc
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Post by Cap on Mar 20, 2019 5:53:52 GMT -5
Interesting.
I am not sure sure I am going to get to the Funks vs Sheik/Abby matches. I have actually never seen them. They are on my computer now, but I may prioritize some last minute rewatches to sort out what I have.
None of the Taker v HBK matches are going to make it.
I am sure as I a help tally up the ballots I'll be reminded of other notable matches that aren't on my list.
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Post by wrestlingfan on Mar 20, 2019 7:18:44 GMT -5
Sangre Chicana vs Ms-1, Atlantis vs Villano III, Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori, Ted Dibiase vs Jim Duggan, Stan Hansen vs Carlos Colon, Bret Hart vs Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels vs The Undertaker didn't make my list.
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Post by shodate on Mar 20, 2019 11:48:20 GMT -5
El satanico vs gran cosshie, satanico vs el dandy 12/14/90, el faraon vs pirata morgan and 3/27/94 queendom.
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Post by fxnj on Mar 20, 2019 20:34:35 GMT -5
This is my kind of thread. I've spent the project building up my favorite stuff, so now it's my turn to tear down the matches that I just can't get. Would love to see some of you other guys go into more detail with your omissions. Come on, Elliott, you know you know you wanna shit on 6/3/94.  I've spoken before that I'm not really very into lucha matwork. I hate it when praise a match by saying "beautiful matwork." When I was training BJJ, there was nothing "beautiful" about it. Every time I would come home feeling like I'd just gone through a car wreck, until I eventually decided to stop as I valued being able to live pain-free to much to continue. Matwork should be grueling, hard fought, and painful. Lucha matwork seems to eschew all of those for the sake of flashy holds and going through the motions as quickly as possible, even if it looks cooperative as fuck. My reactions to lucha tend to range from, at best, "well, this is technically proficient if a little bland," to, at worst, "this is looks like an exhibition and I have no idea how it's supposed to hurt." This reaction holds even when I've tried watching a highly pimped match like Dandy/Casas 92. The first few minutes was some basic shit not really beyond what you might see on the opening minutes of modern indy matches, and they did the most ridiculous looking banana split holds I've ever seen and I just thought, "fuck this match." Satanico/Cochisse was a better match, maybe even a great one, as they just wrestled straightforwardly without any eye rolling bullshit like in Dandy/Casas or Dandy/Azteca, but still didn't see it at all approaching the best of the Golden Age stuff. I tried looking at a section of the match where they spend some time working a hold so I could compare it to Gagne or Thesz doing the same, but then I noticed they barely spent any time actually working the holds and ran through them way too fast. Maybe that's why I can't get into it? Anyway, here's the best comparison I could make using how they work an armlock. Satanico/Cochisse armlock: youtu.be/G2LU-DHLkmQ?t=725I think it's pretty fun watching Satanico slip in those cheap shots, but there's little things stopping me from getting into it as much as I'd like. Why does he have to let go of the hole every time he takes a shot? Why doesn't the other guy seem to be doing much to fight back from the hold? And, most importantly, why is Satanico so god damn tentative with just casually walking around the ring and jawing with fans in between all this? It's a title match, so I want to see him rip that fucker's arm off with all he can muster, not walking around like he's early 90's Undertaker. The hope spot with Cochisse getting in a shot when Satanico seems to be attempting to pick him up in slow motion did not look good to me either. Compare to this youtu.be/86L5ih6n_r8?t=502It's like night and day to me. Look at how Gagne is constantly wrenching in on that hold with the aim of inflicting constant pain on Carpentier. And it's so beautiful how Carpentier reverses it a well. And when it's Gagne's turn to sell, he doesn't fuck around either. He tries to get back to his feet as quickly as possible and the two engage in what feels like a titanic struggle for control of the hold. This is the kind of wrestling that I dig. I kind of got into Santo/Casas 1991 as the matwork on that seemed different from what you might get in EMLL, but I still didn't see it in the same level as the best 50's stuff or the best shoot-style. Lucha brawls have been a huge disappointment for me, as well. The Satanico I saw especially, I just couldn't get into and he seems pretty damn overrated to me right now. I sometimes dug his body language but the matches always had little things that bugged me too much to see them as all-time classics. I have no idea what makes people decide to compare him to Fujiwara. Fujiwara wasn't a guy who'd just fuck around slow walking around the ring. He was a vicious motherfucker who'd carefully look for his opening and then, when he found one, he'd just pounce on it like a tiger, never giving an inch until either the opponent died or took back control. I watched the 1990 Dandy hair match, for example, it just looked so weird how, after that hot start with Dandy getting thrown in the ring post, he'd just kind of fuck around. Show me your god damn mean streak. The match was also hurt by the cheesy low blow storyline that they worked. I understand they Dandy wanted revenge for Satanico doing the same to him in an earlier, but it still hurt the match to me. Blood brawls should be about guys killing each other, not just trying to get a DQ win. The ending had to be one of the unsatisfying endings I've seen to an apuestas match. I felt similarly about Satanico/Sangre, though I'll give them credit for at least having some creativity in trying to work it more like a boxing match rather than following the tired out CMLL formula. Still, there's moments where I just wasn't feeling it. Look at a moment like youtu.be/K8uXY7XWbNg?t=480 with Satanico selling getting knocked down on a kick that looks like it barely even touched his shoulder. It's a totally different story from something like, Hansen/Kawada where you can hear every hit echo throughout the arena. It also had this moment youtu.be/K8uXY7XWbNg?t=640WTF was that. Sangre gets Satanico down and then he just stands there staring at, throwing a total of 1 punch in 30 seconds of that. Satanico's comeback might be one of the worst I've ever seen in a pimped match as Sangre just lets him get up, wipe his face off, and throw a punch all while staring at him the entire time. Ridiculous. I also watched Pirata/Faraon and kind of dug the first two falls, then it turned into 2.9 bullshit and instantly lost any shot at making my list. Seriously, how can anyone defend this? youtu.be/RoLlv7DPmxw?t=1145 … This looks utterly ridiculous to me with how the guy sells that failed splash by doing a jig on the mat rather than clutching his stomach like seems the obvious thing. If you can do a dance then get out of the way and don't just let the guy pin you. Also not a fan of how long Morgan takes in actually going for the cover. I suppose the heart of what I'm trying to say is that the "classic" lucha brawls and title matches I watched were utterly lacking in the urgency required to push them into candidacy for my list. MS-1/Sangre and Casas/Santo were big exceptions to that. MS-1/Sangre is such an amazing spectacle that I'm able to overlook things like the sometimes sloppy punches or the camera missing one of the biggest dives of the match. And Casas/Santo is an absolutely brilliant deconstruction of CMLL's formula with stiff offense that doubles as a great spectacle in itself. 80's US stuff also isn't really my cup of tea, either, though it doesn't frustrate me to the same extent as lucha so I won't spend as much digital ink ripping into it. I've written about it before, but I see the 80's US as a massive regression from the 50's stuff with guys falling for all the cheap heat tactics a guy like Rogers was smart enough to avoid. Magnum/Tully, Clash 6, and the Piper/Valentine feud very well could end up the only 80's US matches on my list. Maybe Flair/Morton and Slaughter/Sheik as well if I find myself in the mood to watch them and dig them enough. I have very little interest in revisiting Flair or Race's work. Maybe they've had some good or great matches, but I just don't feel the need to go back and watch a bunch of their work when there's so much other stuff I'm more interested in. Steamboat/Savage at the Silverdome won't be making my list, either, as I've long felt the match felt lacked struggled and generally felt too choreographed. I might rank the Maple Leaf Gardens match, though, as I remember really digging it and it having all the struggle the Mania match lacked. Probably not a big thing to people here, but Toyota "classics" aren't going to do well on my list, especially relative to how much I dig joshi from other time periods. I just can't get into Toyota's style. I recall watching one match of hers, I think it was vs Mima Shimoda 1995, where she ate 3 backdrops on the floor and was just flying around the ring a minute later. Fuck that. I also had a hard time getting into the 1994 Queendom tag as it just felt too long and bloated for me. I didn't really buy into the story of Hokuto/Kandori pulling out the win after barely being able to cooperate in the beginning, either. I've heard the argument that going 40 minutes was required for the story being told, and to that I say that I say it would still be much better if they instead split it into a two match series. Have one where they start out hating each other but slowly start respecting other before ultimately losing, and then another where they learn to cooperate better and pull out the win. Lastly, ROH stuff, especially Bryan's "classics," hasn't really held up as well as I'd hoped. London/Styles and Homicide/Corino are making my list, but I'm not sure if I'll be ranking anything else. Bryan/London and Bryan/Joe both struck me as too damn long even if there were some good ideas. I dug Bryan/Morishima and Bryan/KENTA though they felt a bit workratey. Bryan/Ki seemed like a poor-mans shoot-style and paled compared to the best of the real thing. I don't mean to say these Bryan matches aren't great in their own and spectacular efforts given his level of experience at the time he did them, but they won't be making my list. As of now, it's looking like Bryan's best stuff is his WWE work, especially the Reigns match. I loved Bryan in that and it will be making my list. |
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Post by bossrock on Mar 20, 2019 22:10:04 GMT -5
Sangre Chicana-MS-1, Ozaki/Kansai-Toyota Yamada 12/6/93, both Sasha-Bayley matches, Cena-Punk MITB '11, both Taker-Michaels WM matches, Austin-Bret '96, the Canadian Stampede tag, Savage-Steamboat, Slaughter-Sheik Boot Camp match, Satanico-Cochisse, Bockwinkel-Hennig, Sting's Squadron-Dangerous Alliance.
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Post by elliott on Mar 20, 2019 23:18:14 GMT -5
Great post by fxnj and that was a lot of my favorite matches. I'll do a longer post soon 😊
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Post by shodate on Mar 21, 2019 4:38:12 GMT -5
many things i have to say fxnj. first of all i disagree with the notion that people would want to shit on any match as fans we want to enjoy every match and pay deep attention to grab positives in a match thats not our style i would say. 2nd thing is that i disagree that bjj is the only grappling techinque that would work in real life as many other techinques work and even lucha holds work and are realistic and bjj is trash anyway and a waste of time it sucks. now i am not the hugest lucha matwork fan as i have my own issues with it but i am not harsh on it as much as u are. i disagree with anyone saying lucha matwork is beautiful and flashy. it may look like just hold to hold with no violence wrenching or punishing from the surface but its a different kind of matwork and if you pay deep attention every element is there for great matwork. i went from lucha love to lucha hate as i became a master in grappling but after paying deep attention i fall in love with it again. now first of all i found that any flashy lucha sequence ie the leg scissors deal that santo does is graceful and is really fast almost caught off the guard that opponent cant do anything and there is even struggle in it to hardly bent your leg to the opponents head and then revolve and that leads to ur bones touching the opponents head its a great techinque. also disagree that lucha matwork is cooperative as there is struggle in every hold i dont know why they look soft to you as they just arent. even a simple hold is so fast that its hard to counter and catches a opponent off the guard and i found there is constant struggle and hard foughtness in lucha. the way lucha guys work is just different as they are small in size. they way they work holds and the way they emphesis struggle can be found with deep paying attention as in every moment there is struggle. its the one upmanship and the body part targeting also the constant roughness that sets it apart from any indy shit. dandy casas wasnt a indy match like it had roughness and a certain edge to it even tho i think casas is overrated. satanico coshee had the arm lock ya linked and satanico was clearly wrenching the arm and twisting it. he works like fujiwara due to his selling and defensive ability constantly looking for advantages all the while he does his great rudo cocky character work. i agree gagne carpentier had more struggle a harder more punishing hold and great tearing off but i think the 50s guys were the best ever at working holds and thesz is the goat to me. it isnt unfair to compare but the satanico coshee was really close and wasnt far behind in terms of everything it was great i would argue that satanico coshee had a better transtion as the carpentier counter wasnt different from some counters in santo casas 91. i dislike the fact that satanico fans use him as a barometer but the man is amazing. also man that pirata faraon example is another thing i disagree with as the move you critized was actually pirata using his boots edge to drove it in the stomach of faraon to counter it was brutal looking and it looked like it can damage inner organs. then i know you dont like how faraon sold it but faraon immedietaly grabbed his stomach then moved in ring from pain. again disagree with the satanico sangre critisms. it was a really unique match in terms of structure with it being a gritty strugglestic startegic fight. again disagree that satanicos kicks in that spot werent great. just beacuse they dont sound hard doesnt mean they arent great and punishing. and that type of sound isnt a thing in lucha but the violence in strikes still came accors to me and they looked great. i know you are more into hansen kawada or battlarts ajpw type stiffness were the sound is also loud.but the way guys in lucha kick each other and it looks like they are droving it others skull and its ripping their skin is great too. i know why it may not look great tho.now i dont think that spot made sangre look like an idoit it was a signature sangre stare trying to wait for satanico to get up meanwhile having his arm in a position from where he can move forward and punch em. he tried to move forward but satanico catched him with a signature fast hook. it was great. again you made a great post and valid points that i disagree with so i am trying to contradict ur points to defend lucha even tho i dont agree with all that i wrote myself. i also like also lucha guys drove parts in holds they sell well too i feel. my biggest issue is the stand up thing were they trade random offence in tercera caida out of nowhere without struggle thats just flashy. it looks exhibation to me and is my in general biggest problem with lucha its a formula sort thing in 3rd fall. i disagree that satanico sangre wasnt urgent it was clawly startegic yet urgent.lucha brawls has alot elements that mesh up like character work stares ie rudoing and startegy violence they have struggle and urgency too and they mesh well sometime and sometime they dont.the way they bump and the violence they have is realistic to me and in the way they have those elments. i have seen people hate the way they do pinfalls or put holds in lucha calling it sloppy botchey and a double standard but even tho i dont disagree there is a point that can contradict that statment. for ex in pinfalls even tho they look sloppy on surfabe level but when you see closely its a realistic method of pinning and a grea techinque as they grab both legs in a rana counter hold and hold them tightly trying to not let them go as both wrestlers struggle one to get out and use their legs and move them up again and again to get out of the pinning postion and the other wrestler holds the leg and try to not let them go from the pinning position. it looks closer techinque to the 50s then indy and on deep attention is another great little thing. the submissions in they also punish contionsouly and move their hands twisting and wrenching up and down to put more pressure and it looks hard and great to me again even tho they it may not look great to you there is again struggle in it as wrestlerb also tries to get out of the hold for example. stiffness isnt the only way to work violent as i know you are more into battlearts/ajpw due to how hard they sound the best of boxing strikes dont sound hard they just look violent. lucha strikes looks really droving and great and from the way lucha is shot to the size of guys being small it shouldnt be hold against them. also satanico is an amazing genius i will say and similar to fujiwara in how he postions himself to how he works defensive and look for opening to capatilize all the while methodically picking apart his opponent limbs. and mixing it with his gimmick and character work of a rudo. the positioning and the way he sells defensively lays down and his face experssion are all similar to fujiwara.he also has great fast hooks and bodyshots like wara and wara strikes asaide headbutt also looks similarly great doesnt make huge sound but is hard rough dank as fuck ie body punches combos with fuckton of punches fast and furious with different techinque to different body parts.
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Post by Cap on Mar 21, 2019 7:48:24 GMT -5
fxnj, interesting post and thoughtful breakdown. Though I am also generally averse to shitting on stuff I don't like, I can appreciate thoughtful criticism. Ultimately, a lot of my disagreement with you stems from a philosophical difference, which might not be worth digging too deep into here since this is about omissions and not tastes. With regards to the grappling arguments, I just don't feel that enjoying the grittiness of golden era grappling and the flash of lucha grappling are mutually exclusive. I love gritty, grinding, realistic grappling, but what I appreciate about lucha with regard to that is sort of two fold. First, I completely sympathize with your argument about training and watching wrestling. I train bjj and come home with massive bruises and tweaked everything all the time. It certainly doesn't feel "beautiful". I get that. But I do think when you watch really high level people do their thing there is such an art to the nuances and complexity of what they are doing in such a small amount of time. It has also very much upped my appreciation for good, realistic grappling. However, I always think that one of the goals of good wrestling is to slow down a fight and blow it up to make it legible for live and TV audiences. So while "realism" is important, it is fairly far down on my list. Lucha - maybe moreso than any other "genre" really blows up the action for the entertainment of the audience, so those flashy holds don't bother me (except those splits, I agree with you somewhat on that. I have never liked that hold much - though it is not completely dissimilar to the electric chair Eddie Bravo is known for and I have hit that in rolls and seen it used effectively) Second, and related, I always kind of think of Lucha as the closes wrestling style to comic book storytelling. Its over the top and fanciful (while often sometimes incredibly violent), so again, my expectations just aren't violated when I watch it. It makes a lot of the contrived stuff in lucha make more sense and work in the context of its own psychology and its own rhythms.
That all said, I think lucha is probably the most decisive type of wrestling among hard core fans. People who like it tend to really really like it (myself included) and people who don't often really really can't get into it, so I get it.
I also sort of agree on Toyota. The two big tag matches will make my list because I think they are fantastic sprints. However, she is probably my least favorite person in both and I don't think her hyped singles matches hold up as well. I love joshi and she is probably not in my top 10 favorite joshi wrestlers, maybe not top 15
I also agree on the Bryan/London match, but even before this project I had gone back and watched a lot of the ROH stuff and thought Bryan's work held up. I will say that I think he tended to go just a few minutes too long (Morishima chain match is a good example) and would put on matches that can be a challenge to get through even if you like them (that long one vs Strong is a great example of this), but to me those are nit-picky things that keep the matches from being on the top 100, but don't keep them from being great. Full disclosure, I am a dragon mark and have been since 2004, but I think a lot of it holds up well. I love his matches with Ki (Round Robin 1), Nigel (esp. Unified), Gibson (title win), and Mori (esp the first one) and think his work generally just holds up in a sea of stuff that can blend together for me. He will have two ROH matches on my list. I would at least say, however, his WWE stuff is on par. There are also two WWE matches that make my list and probably more from that period of his career that comes close.
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Post by fxnj on Mar 21, 2019 17:32:37 GMT -5
Great posts, guys.
shodate, I really appreciate you going in detail about how lucha features struggle in its own unique way. I also am in full agreement that BJJ is far from an ideal way to look at pro-wrestling matwork. I'm reminded of one guy elsewhere who went on about how experienced he was in BJJ and how the matwork in Robinson/Baba was unrealistic bullshit. The example he brought up was the part of the match where Robinson gave his back to Baba and went for a toehold on Baba's leg scissors. What he didn't realize was that in old-school catch-wrestling, where chokes and holds that inflict serious injury are frowned upon, that thing Robinson did actually is a real technique that people are taught. And, in that particular match, Baba's legs were too strong for Robinson to even get the toe hold properly locked in, and he ended up having to break up the leg scissors and go for something unconventional like grinding Baba's calf on his head. It was an awesome moment that totally went over that poster's head because he convinced himself that BJJ is the only grappling style worth appreciating. I only brought up my experience with BJJ to explain why I can't get on board with the idea that mat-work is some sort of dance and not as punishing as the other parts of a match. If anything, an extended high-level mat sequence is probably the most grueling and painful thing that guys can do. To me, the most important things in a match are a sense of struggle within the work and a sense of the guys wanting to win the match. I put the focus on moments where I thought guys were just meandering around the ring as that's the worst sin a match can commit in my mind. So I really did enjoy reading you explain how those things are present in lucha albeit in different ways than I might be used to. That point about the sound is excellent as well. The most fun I ever had watching lucha actually was back in 2010 when Black Terry Jr. was uploading his IWRG handhelds that made it possible to hear every slap, grunt, and scream present in the work. The element of sound might be more important to me than I realized, so it's entirely possible that these lucha strikes that are punishing in their own way just aren't popping out to me because I expect to be able to hear them.
Cap, you had an excellent post as well with explaining how you can enjoy the flashier aspects of lucha while still appreciating the gritter aspects of other matches and training BJJ. I did learn the electric chair and I'm aware that it's been used by Eddie Bravo in competition. My issue with the banana split in Casas/Dandy is with the technique used and how they work the hold, though we seem in agreement that it didn't look good. The comic book comparison is also an interesting one. That might be a factor in why I can't get lucha as I'm also the type to dock 80's US for stuff that I see as "cartoony." I'll also confess to being a bit of a provocateur in the tone of my post. I don't hate any of the matches I mentioned (except Toyota/Shimoda) and I do consider a lot of them to even be great. I reviewed some of the Bryan matches I mentioned in my watching thread, for example. My goal wasn't actually to shit on matches, but just to try to piece together some things that might be stopping me from enjoying highly pimped stuff as much as others seem to. At the end the day, to me it's just about expanding one's knowledge and appreciation of wrestling, and you and shodate did a great job helping me out with that.
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Post by bossrock on Mar 21, 2019 20:32:07 GMT -5
For example I'll have some 90s AJPW that will make my final cut but won't have 6/3/94. Jumbo vs Terry is hanging on by a thread. Hart/Austin (both matches) didn't make my final 125. Etc I'm glad you mentioned the Bret-Austin series. The Survivor Series match didn't make my ballot and while the Mania 13 match did, it didn't crack my top 50. The Survivor Series match is really good and proof that Austin was a pretty well-rounded wrestler pre-neck injury. It just takes too long to get going. And while I think Bret was great, his work is a bit too "dry" at times. Meanwhile the Mania match is excellent, but I feel like because it's been celebrated for so long as one of the greatest matches ever it sets expectations that are way too lofty. Excellent brawl, but there are quite a few better ones. |
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Post by Cap on Mar 23, 2019 12:10:36 GMT -5
Fxnj, I totally get it. i thought your post was solid. I'll go into more details on some of my notable ommissions after I turn my ballot in. I am trying to find time to do some last minute rewatches this weekend and next to sort out the top of my list and see where a few matches I haven't really seen in a while REALLY belong for me.
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Post by superstarsleeze on Mar 23, 2019 16:50:30 GMT -5
Most of mine will come from lack of watching. I have watched and reviewed over 1,900 matches for this project but I didn't get to All Japan 90s. I've seen it but I'm only considering matches I have written reviews for. The Pillars will be represented based on their work from the 2000s. Also I might get some 98/99 All Japan in there.
I will have no lucha, Portland, Puerto Rico, Joshi or WOS because of lack of watching. All Japan 85-89 will have no representation either. New Japan from the 80s will suffer the same fate except for Liger vs Sano from 89 as I should complete Japanese Juniors from the 90s this weekend.
So what did I watch? Lol.
US 1977-1989 (Except Portland): I think Lawler vs Dundee is overrated. Yep I said it. I think one will make my list but there's a real lack of energy to it that bothers me. There's a lot to love they make each punch count and they sell well. But Goddamnit move! I am generally anti-minimalism in art and not surprisingly I prefer the grandiose Misawa, Kobashi epics. I actually think Lawler's work with Bigelow and Idol outstrips Dundee. I'm a big Flair fan but the Windham Crockett Cup match is wicked overrated. Flair refuses to get any offense and overindulges his tendency to let his opponent shine. Very frustrating. I don't like Wargames matches. Too claustrophobic. It is just a series of one minute hot tags with no flow and pretty much all are anti-climatic. World Class may have no representation on my list.
US 90s: I don't know what qualifies as a notable omission here. I will have 12-13 matches make it. Usual suspects. I think Hart/Austin Survivor Series '96 is way too dry and very overrated. Hart/Hart cage is brutally boring. Bret vs Bulldog from December 95 is a great bladejob and that's it. No Wargames will make my list as I said before.
US 2000s: I won't finish ROH in time so I will have to decide if I will count those matches. WWE has only been completed through 2004. Cena vs Umaga could be a casualty. Whats canon from this decade? Angle vs Benoit is overrated and just a series of highspots down the stretch.
Japan 80s: I think only All Japan 80-84 and shoot style will have representation. I think I like all the Usual suspects. O Flair vs Jumbo just didn't hit the mark for me. Love both men but just didn't get to the next gear.
Japan 90s: Pretty much watched everything non-All Japan. Liger vs Sano and Liger vs Samurai won't make it. Han vs Tamura may be the only RINGS matches to make it. These Days M-Pro is not as good as the December iteration and that iteration will make it. Mutoh vs Chono will not be the New Japan Heavies match to make it.
Japan 00s: I can't think of anything people really like that I don't.
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Post by bossrock on Mar 24, 2019 8:51:26 GMT -5
Probably my biggest issue with Memphis and a lot of other territory wrestling, ha. The best is absolutely fantastic, but sometimes I find myself screaming at the screen for them to do something. |
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