|
|
Post by Cap on Jul 18, 2019 15:03:15 GMT -5
Probably my favorite wrestler of all time and I think one of the few who legit belongs in the "greatest ever" conversation. So many high end matches, but I think his sweet spot is often the 4.5 star match. He has a few matches that made my list, but not as many as I might have even expected first go around.
|
|
|
|
Post by bossrock on Jul 19, 2019 18:51:13 GMT -5
While I've only scratched the surface of his ROH stuff, I think he's quite easily the best wrestler of the 2000's. And if it hadn't been for his injury, he'd have at least a really good shot at being the best wrestler of the 2010's. Even going all the way back to his 2002 matches against Low Ki he looked like the best in the world. His striking is great. His mat work is impeccable. One of the most intelligent when it comes to working with different opponents with different styles. From a really fun PWG brawl with Necro Butcher to a "Noah junior heavyweight meets AJPW heavyweight" match with Triple H (great description with that one Cap!), I have yet to find one match that Bryan did not excel in.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Jul 20, 2019 8:17:31 GMT -5
The thing about Bryan is any time he steps in the ring you know it will be good, it could be great, and there is a chance he could make it an all timer. I alluded to this earlier, but he has a tendency to cap out just below the level of being considered for this list. I think he did have a tendency in ROH to sometimes let the finishing sequence linger just a bit, go a touch longer than needed to the point where I would lose some investment. Other times I really want another 2 minutes. I honestly think the HHH match at Mania would have been an all timer if it had 2-3 more minutes. I think Austin echoed this once on his podcast, maybe when interviewing Bryan. It's a strange criticism (not even sure that is the right word) given that his execution, timing, and psychology are so good, but there are hand full of his matches that I think showed that potential to be 5 stars/all timers and just didn't close the deal. I think some of it is his willingness to experiment and try new things.
There are some high end matches from him I might want to revisit. I am one of the only people I know high on it, but I really suggest his title match vs Gibson. It doesn't jump off the page in the context of 2000s indie wrestling, but the last time I watched it I did so after watching some 70s NWA title matches and I thought that juxtaposition really helped the match shine as an old school title match. I also think the Punk match at Over The Limit was great. Speaking of Punk, Dragon vs Punk from FIP Bring the Pain is another sleeper. 2/3 falls match that sort of falls in that category i mentioned earlier. 85% of it is all timer quality and then 15% just holds it right below that range.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 6, 2019 13:15:46 GMT -5
Is that Gibson match available anywhere? I've always wanted to see that.
Its hard for me to reconcile how much of Bryan's ring style during his rise to the top of WWE was just ripping off KENTA in much shorter matches.
Obviously Bryan is great and much better than KENTA. But it was pretty stark.
|
|
|
|
Post by bossrock on Aug 6, 2019 17:56:51 GMT -5
It definitely feels like a good chunk of today's indie wrestlers were influenced in some way by KENTA or Low Ki along with the obvious AJPW and ROH influences.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Aug 7, 2019 7:42:57 GMT -5
I couldn't find Gibson vs Danielson on line. Its on a few different ROH comps. Its got to be somewhere out there.
I feel like Bryan recognized that his style needed to lean more into a Kenta-esque strong style when he hit the WWE and was on the rise. I would say he ripped some of the offense off, but the glue of who he was (his psychology, selling, charisma) was always unmistakably Bryan Danielson. If anything - as Bossrock is sort of alluding to - I would say Bryan was just ahead of the curve (as usual) in where he was drawing influences to stand out.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 7, 2019 16:20:12 GMT -5
I'm not saying that he worked a "KENTA-esque" style or he was "clearly influenced by KENTA" like Hash to Joe or Flair to Michaels. I'm saying he was actually KENTA only a white guy worked into a WWE format. Bryan was someone who we all saw work LONNNNNNG matches full of different stuff he could credibly pull off and make look good. But when he was in WWE and limited to the cookie-cutter corporate in-ring TV style (That admittedly Bryan was/is better at than everyone) he chose to just go full KENTA. Moveset, pacing, selling all looked like it came straight from a KENTA match. I mean, if Punk wasn't around I guarantee he would have started doing the GTS. So he had to take the knee instead.  Now it worked and was awesome and better than anything KENTA ever did because Bryan was better than KENTA and also he wasn't working 30+ minute long matches which is the biggest problem with KENTA. So I'm not even sure its really a "criticism" since it helped turn him into the biggest babyface in wrestling. But watching the entirety of Bryan's pre-injury WWE run and then a bunch of KENTA for GWE literally right after I was pretty stunned. "I JUST WATCHED ALL OF THIS, FUCK!" There's some early Bryan in WWE stuff I really like against some really questionable people like Ziggler, young Miz, Cody, and Dibiase. He's still more of the BattlArts Anderson Brother style wrestler you'd see in stuff like the Ki submission match or the Sawa Evolve match. I think the Cena match from SummerSlam is still my favorite Bryan match, and honestly Low-Ki might still be my favorite opponent. |
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Aug 7, 2019 17:03:56 GMT -5
Still feels really overstated to me. Bryan never felt like he was cosplaying or strait up doing another dude's work to me, even when he was using tons of Kenta's offense. In fairness though, I'd have to watch some of that era Bryan up against prime Kenta. Its been a while for either really. I could change my mind, but on memory this feels like conflating copping some offense and picking up the pace with just basically doing that other wrestler's shtick.
The Cena match really might be my favorite of his. I ranked the Nigal unified match higher, but it dropped pretty starkly at the last minute. Every time I watch the Cena match I probably like it more.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 7, 2019 17:20:47 GMT -5
Still feels really overstated to me. Bryan never felt like he was cosplaying or strait up doing another dude's work to me, even when he was using tons of Kenta's offense. In fairness though, I'd have to watch some of that era Bryan up against prime Kenta. Its been a while for either really. I could change my mind, but on memory this feels like conflating copping some offense and picking up the pace with just basically doing that other wrestler's shtick. The Cena match really might be my favorite of his. I ranked the Nigal unified match higher, but it dropped pretty starkly at the last minute. Every time I watch the Cena match I probably like it more. I'd recommend watching some of their stuff and comparing it. Not necessarily the match quality but what they are specifically doing. |
|
|
|
Post by kas on Aug 14, 2019 15:25:37 GMT -5
Bryan's consistency and ability to get the best out of any opponent are his two defining traits for me. There is a long list of people that you could say had their best match with him. Favourite match of his has to be the Hero PWG match, simply phenomenal. Also is this the Gibson match you're referring to www.bilibili.com/video/av12959590?from=search&seid=7901492688971233396 |
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 3:45:08 GMT -5
Turns out I've had the Gibson match on disc all along. Hahahaha. I haven't watched it yet but I will soon.
Bryan's a guy with basically his entire career on tape and unanimous praise pretty much the entire time. So I'm gonna ask several questions that I hope will be really easy for folks.
Who was Bryan's best rival?
Who was Bryan's worst rival?
What are the best Bryan Tag matches? Not trios. Strictly two on two.
What are Bryan's best multi man matches (trios/battle royals/more than just 2 on 2)?
What are the absolute 10 best (not favorite, best) matches of his career?
What are the absolute 10 best (not favorite, best) singles matches of his career?
What are the best brawls of his career (hoping for at least 5, would be delighted with 10)?
What are the best technical style matches of his career (hoping for at least 5, would be delighted with 10)
What are some of your favorite under the radar great Bryan matches that might not necessarily end up on someone's top 10 best Bryan matches? For this I'm not looking for like "vs Nigel because indy stuff 15 years ago is under the radar now." I'm looking more for something like Cap's love of the Gibson match that no one else really talks about. The Evolve match against Munenori Sawa would be my version of that. Pimped at the time for sure, but seems to be lost in the mountain of pimped Bryan matches over the year. Again hoping for like at least 5 recs here.
Lastly. What's the worst Daniel Bryan match you can think of?
|
|
|
|
Post by bossrock on Sept 8, 2019 9:28:35 GMT -5
This will most likely be a work in progress, but here goes.
Best Rival: McGuinness closely followed by Morishima (everyone talks about the Manhattan Mayhem match but their whole series was terrific)
Worst Rival: Probably Kane but they still had some fun matches. The Extreme Rules match I think is pretty underrated.
Best Tag: w/Claudio Castagnoli vs. Jigsaw and Mike Quackenbush Hiding in Plain Sight
Best Multi Mans: Elimination Chamber 2014, vs. Randy Orton and Batista WrestleMania 30, vs. Kevin Owens and Ali Fastlane 2019, vs. A.J. Styles and Samoa Joe Ted Petty Invitational 2004
10 Best Singles Matches: vs. Low Ki ROH 2002, vs. Low Ki JAPW 2002, vs. Nigel McGuinness Unified 2006, vs. KENTA Glory By Honor 5, vs. Takeshi Morishima Manhattan Mayhem 2007, vs. Takeshi Morishima Man Up 2007, vs. Nigel McGuinness 6th Anniversary, vs. Takeshi Morishima Final Battle 2008, vs. Triple H WrestleMania 30, vs. The Miz Summerslam 2018
Best Brawls: vs. Morishima Final Battle 2008, vs. Necro Butcher Giant Size Annual 2007, vs. Kane Extreme Rules 2014
Best Technical Matches: vs. Low Ki ROH 2002, vs. Low Ki JAPW 2002, vs. A.J. Styles ROH 2006, vs. Munenori Sawa Evolve 5, vs. Nigel McGuinness Unified 2006
Best Under the Radar Matches: Every match with Morishima after Manhattan Mayhem. The Man Up match is one of my favorite sprints ever and the 2008 Final Battle match is one of my favorite No DQ style matches.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Sept 8, 2019 10:39:00 GMT -5
Bossrock and I have very similar opinions of Danielson and taste in his matches, so I more or less sign off on his post as well. I'll throw my top 10 matches (in no order out because its a little different.
vs Low Ki (ECWA - 7/21/2001) ****3/4
vs Low Ki (ROH - 3/30/2002) *****
vs James Gibson (ROH - 9/17/2005) ****3/4
vs Nigel McGuinness (ROH 8/12/2006) *****
vs KENTA (ROH - 9/16/2006) ****3/4
vs Takeshi MOrishima (ROH - 8/25/2007)****3/4
vs John Cena (WWE - 8/18/2013) *****
vs HHH (WWE - 4/6/2014) ****3/4
vs Brock Lesnar (WWE - 11/18/2018) ****3/4
vs Kofi Kingston (WWE 4/7/2019) ****3/4
I would say his best 10 matches stacks up really well against just about anyone, but his best 25-30 matches is where he starts to really come into focus as an all timer to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by mjp7798 on Feb 9, 2021 20:22:12 GMT -5
If I were to do a top 100 ballot, I'd suspect the amount of Bryan matches that actually make it would be pretty low, but his floor is so so high. The list of people who had their best match with Bryan is endless and he has this incredible ability to throw himself wholeheartedly into a role/storyline and make it work even when its objectively crap. For someone like me who's 22, he the wrestler that Eddie Guerrero was pretty much always described as after his passing
|
|
Now it worked and was awesome and better than anything KENTA ever did because Bryan was better than KENTA and also he wasn't working 30+ minute long matches which is the biggest problem with KENTA. So I'm not even sure its really a "criticism" since it helped turn him into the biggest babyface in wrestling. But watching the entirety of Bryan's pre-injury WWE run and then a bunch of KENTA for GWE literally right after I was pretty stunned. "I JUST WATCHED ALL OF THIS, FUCK!" 
