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Post by Cap on Aug 21, 2019 5:23:22 GMT -5
At the risk of rinsing and repeating over and over - because I think its clear enough that you are addressing a case made by someone else and you and I are all talking about longevity in different terms - I think she has plenty of great matches to be considered top tier, even if they came in a shorter window. When you couple that with a long career of being maybe a different kind of wrestler, to me, that is enough to warrant consideration, but again I don't value longevity in the same way a lot of people do. I value the highest highs and emotional investment. Aja is on the short list of people who spark emotional investment at the highest levels to me and when I put her very best 10 matches up against anyone's very best.... she is competitive. Add to this here that I actually think she out performs her best 10 matches because I think some of them are brought down a notch by her opponents (thinking Toyota particularly). As a peak performer - and peak would weigh far heavier on my list than many (one of the main 2-3 reasons I didn't submit a ballot) - Aja (to me) makes a great case.
Now again, all of this comes with the caveat that I am at a different place thinking about GWE... in that I just haven't to the same degree a lot of people would. There is a solid chance I never will. It just isn't - as of right now - how I tend to watch, think about, and enjoy wrestling... though I am glad others have thought about it because I learned a lot and got turned on to some really good wrestling at the tail in and post that project). If I did a list maybe she ends up #9 maybe she ends up #49... I have no clue. I would honestly, gun to my head, probably have at least Hokuto and Kandori over her and that is just her peers. I could probably - in 10 minutes or so - come up with 10 people that would surely be ahead of her, but that just speaks to the difference in where we are thinking about this.
Finally, I guessing she doesn't have the run you are looking for. I could be wrong. A quick look at cagematch fan ratings (also not the be all end all by any means) gives us 6 rated matches after the year 2000 and one of those was the AEW match (which was great fun, but I wouldn't say it contributes to her "match case" as much as her "charisma/it factor case". My guess is her great match case falls hard after 1997, like you say. She is a peak candidate to me.
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Post by Kadaveri on Aug 21, 2019 15:21:49 GMT -5
I remember Aja had fantastic matches with Chigusa Nagayo and Carlos Amano in 2005 (I think the latter was at GAEA's final show), but I can't find them online anywhere now...
Maybe I should do a hunt, because I'm sure there's more great post-2000 Aja matches out there that just aren't easily available. Nowhere near as frequent as her peak, but more than just the odd Satomura match certainly. I remember there being a Hashimoto match fairly recently I thought was excellent, can't remember which one now as I wasn't recording matches at the time, but I'll try find it. She apparently had a really great match with Sareee this year in Pro-Wrestling Diana, but who knows if we'll ever see more than a Samurai TV highlights package.
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Post by elliott on Aug 21, 2019 18:33:58 GMT -5
Thanks Kadaveri. I've been thinking for a while about starting to accumulate all of the GAEA available. I used to have a bunch of it on VHS back in the day but those tapes are long gone. I'm not opposed to seeking out stuff that isn't easily available online.
To Cap, I think it is entirely possible that Aja has been awesome for the past 18 years. In the late 90s & early 00s she didn't have the opportunities she had from 90-95 because of the nature of the business & booking, but whenever she had a chance to have a big match she really always did deliver at least when I was regularly following her career. She'll turn 49 this year and we can actually point to a decent number of people who were capable of being excellent wrestlers in their mid-late 40s and even beyond...especially the sort of wrestlers that were as good as Aja in her prime. She is also sort of predisposed to age well compared to other Joshi wrestlers because of her style/gimmick. So really, she could very well have the sort of run she would need to be a real viable GOATC.
This stood out to me:
First, what do you think are Aja's 10 best matches.
Second, I think the Toyota series is awesome. I just watched all of them. I intended to just watch the 6/95 match, but I liked it so much I went back & watched 11/94 and then 3/95 as well. They are all great matches. I think the 6/95 match is a real contender for a top 100 GME list and one of the best Bigger Wrestler vs Smaller Wrestlers ever and Toyota's performance in it is excellent. 11/94 and 3/95 are both excellent matches. 11/94 is of course in the Tokyo Dome so they work a bigger more spectacle driven match. 3/95 is more traditional with Aja dominating and slowing the pace for large stretches of the match & Toyota going for quick comebacks only to be cut off & slowed back down before finally getting momentum. Both of those matches have table spots that I don't love in mid 90s AJW women, but the one in the March match worked well for me (Aja gets the boot up!). The 6/95 match is sort of the best of both worlds without the table spot and the best possible match that they could have had together. Probably Toyota's best performance in a singles match.
When I first saw 6/95 like 20 years ago, I also got the tape for the 8/95 show so I always think of the Kansai match too. So of course I decided to watch that one too. It is spectacular. Aja is a bit more animated than she usually is (which is awesome) and is really great but I think Kansai has a holy shit level performance. Its funny like 80% of the way through this, I was wondering why I didn't rank it during GME because I knew I had watched it for the project and it is so obviously great. Then the Aja arm injury stuff happened and I was like "oh...I don't like that at all." Well, I looked up the thread for the match to see if Cap said anything about it (otherwise I was gonna recommend it) and it turns out not only had he seen it but I also even wrote a bit about how I didn't like the arm injury spot.
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Post by Cap on Aug 21, 2019 19:10:49 GMT -5
Ohhh. I the Toyota matches. I just think Aja is the star performer and most of my critiques of them tend to be about Toyota, but they aren't original. I love Toyota, but sometimes she is just a bit much for me.
I might be forgetting something, but I would say my top 10 Aja matches are (in no particular order)...
w/Kimura vs Nakano and Iwamoto (8/19/90) ****1/2 vs Bull (Cage - 11/14/90) ****3/4 vs Hotta (1/24/94) ***** w/ Bull vs Kandori/Hokuto (3/27/94) ***** vs Toyota (11/20/94) ****1/2 vs Hokuto (11/20/94 ****1/4 vs Toyota (6/27/95)****1/2 vs Dynamite (8/30/95) ****3/4 vs Satomura (9/15/99)****3/4 vs Kaoru (2/13/00) *****
I feel like I am a little alone on that Hokuto match. I don't see a ton of love for it where I am on the interwebs and I haven't seen it in a while, but I remember loving it.
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Post by elliott on Aug 21, 2019 19:54:34 GMT -5
I just don't really think the things that make Toyota so annoying are prevalent in the Kong matches. Except for her screaming & wailing which will always be horrible It's certainly a credit to Kong, but I also think Toyota understood she couldn't work full Toyota style against Kong and she tempered her style accordingly. Kong has shown herself in the past to be a more than willing bumper & seller so I think Toyota could have taken even more of the matches had she really pushed for it. That Toyota didn't & Kong didn't allow her to and they work a more traditional Monster vs Underdog Babyface style is a credit to both of them I think. I think the 6/95 match was two great wrestlers working at the top of their game. I actually think Toyota's selling performance specifically is fantastic and something worth noting about that match especially because everyone (rightly) dumps on Toyota's selling. Kong is about as great as a monster as you can be in the match. Have you seen the 8/25/93 match with Kansai? I feel like I watched it during GME, but I don't remember it clearly at the moment. I plan on rewatching soon. Its interesting to see you praise the Hokuto match from the Dome. That's always been considered a disappointment and one of the knocks against Aja & Hokuto was always that they never had a great singles match together (kinda like Jumbo & Hansen). I'll rewatch that soon as well to see what I think. I don't think i've watched it in 20+years. I'd strongly recommend the Bull match from 92 DreamRush if you haven't seen it. That belongs on the Aja Top 10. All time great passing of the torch match. I came up with this as my chronological list: 1. Aja Kong & Bison Kimura vs Bull Nakano & Grizzly Iwamoto (AJW 08/19/90) 2. Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (AJW Wrestlemarinepiad 11/14/90) 3. Aja Kong & Bison Kimura vs Manami Toyota & Esther Moreno (AJW 04/29/91) 4. Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (AJW Dream Rush 11/26/92) 5. Aja Kong vs Megumi Kudo (AJW 12/6/93) 6. Aja Kong vs Yumiko Hotta (AJW 01/24/94) 7. Aja Kong & Bull Nakano vs Akira Hokuto & Shinobu Kandori (AJW Queendom 03/27/94) 8. Aja Kong vs Manami Toyota (AJW 6/27/95) 9. Aja Kong vs Meiko Satomura (GAEA 09/15/99) 10. Aja Kong vs Meiko Satomura (GAEA 5/16/00) She might not have been the best wrestler in at least 3 of those matches though and they might be 3 of my top 4 I could see the Kansai 8/93 match making it on the list.
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Post by Cap on Aug 22, 2019 6:14:09 GMT -5
I am not sure if I have seen the 93 Kansai match. I'll poke around for it soon.
This does make me want to watch the Hokuto match again. Its been quite a while for me, but I remember thinking I didn't really see why people hated it and thought it worked really well as a tournament final. There are a few matches that were close to unseating it for that final spot on my Aja Top 10.
As for Toyota, its super nit-picky. I do think we got some of Toyota's best performances. I have those two matches at 4.5 and the 95 match particularly is really close to 4.75. I think they both look great, but I think Aja is the star of the show and reigns Toyota in when they are together a bit. The point really isn't that Toyota is bad, but that - returning to why I brought it up originally - Aja is the best person in the match.
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Post by elliott on Aug 23, 2019 1:38:41 GMT -5
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Post by bossrock on Aug 23, 2019 20:42:56 GMT -5
Let me just add how awesome it is that her theme is The Hellion/Electric Eye.
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Post by Cap on Aug 24, 2019 10:52:46 GMT -5
Just watched the Dynamite match from 93. It would bump the Hokuto match out of my top 10 probably. Really good. I'd maybe go as high as ****1/2
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Post by elliott on Aug 28, 2019 3:37:33 GMT -5
When I watched the 3 Toyota maches from 94-95, I was surprised to see Toyota was several inches taller than Aja and now I can't help but notice how short she is now.
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