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Post by Cap on Jul 18, 2019 15:14:45 GMT -5
Aja Kong's particular brand of brutality is my kinda wrestling. I could watch her backfist women into next year all day long. Real strong contender for greatest to ever do it, tons of top end matches to consider.
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Post by elliott on Jul 28, 2019 20:40:15 GMT -5
Who's better Aja or Bull?
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Aja Kong
Jul 30, 2019 6:10:13 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by tetsujin on Jul 30, 2019 6:10:13 GMT -5
I think it's time to stop talking about if Aja is one of the greatest female wrestlers of all time and instead discuss about her being one of the greatest. Period. Everyone talks about Casas, Tenryu or Lawler having the longevity argument as one of their strongest pillars to their GOATC, but nobody includes Kong in that tier and oh boy, does she have a lot of years having tons of great matches. Great in 1990 and great in 2018, no down periods between. That's CRAZY.
She's a top 10 contender to me. Maybe even top 5.
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Post by Cap on Jul 30, 2019 7:10:07 GMT -5
I agree completely. If i were doing a GME list today Aja would similarly be a top 10 contender for me and there is no way she would fall outside the top 20. I often reinforce that Kandori is my favorite female wrestler ever (and I would rank both of them, along with at least Hokuto among the best wrestlers ever regardless of gender), but if I were being honest it would be hard for me to rank Kandori higher than Aja. I am a peak-fan, but Aja's consistency and longevity are absolutely undeniable. Who's better Aja or Bull? Aja. I love Bull, but Aja is just on another level and has a superior body of work to me.
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Post by elliott on Jul 30, 2019 18:30:27 GMT -5
What are the great Aja Kong matches post 2004 that I need to see? How regularly does she work? I literally have no idea.
I watched a shit ton of GAEA in the 2000-03 era and she was always great, but it was mostly in tags. She wasn't having 10 big singles matches of length per year in that era or anything. She was good, but it wasn't "Top 10 of all time" level stuff. Fine building block stuff from her 92-95 peak.
I think she's always gotten respect. Its just some people don't watch Joshi for whatever reasons. But I've never seen any real deep criticisms of Aja as a worker.
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Post by elliott on Jul 30, 2019 20:35:27 GMT -5
NL nominated Aja vs Shida from 9/18 & I'm excited to check that out. Anyone else seen that match? I'm familiar with her Satomura matches. Can anyone recommend 10-15 more matches from 04-present?
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Post by bossrock on Jul 30, 2019 21:35:49 GMT -5
I should give Kong-Shida another watch. I remember thinking it was good but didn't quite see the hype behind it.
The trios match at Double or Nothing was really good and she was arguably the star even if she didn't spend a ton of time in the ring.
As for where she ranks overall, I think she's a pretty easy top 50 candidate at least. My pick for best female wrestler ever although I'm still trying to watch more Joshi.
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Post by elliott on Aug 19, 2019 3:53:11 GMT -5
Still hoping for some recommendations that shows she has the longevity to match 4 decades of Jerry Lawler. Are we sure it wasn't like 6 or 7 great years and then like 20 years of good work with (maybe) one great match per year?
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Post by Cap on Aug 19, 2019 7:17:26 GMT -5
Maybe it is, but I would say her 6-7 great years are great enough to put her anywhere on your list you want, honestly, then again, I value peak more than most I guess.
I would say Aja's peak is obviously her 92 -95, but she has class, all time great stuff from 90-00. Just looking quickly at stuff I have I would say you could kind of bookend the decade for her with Aja/Bison vs Bull Grizzly and the Aja Bull cage match in 1990 and then Satamura matches in 99 and 2000 and the Kaoru match in 2000 (my MOTY, I think). In those 11 years (and granted much of it comes in about a 4-5 year period) she has as many matches I would legit consider for this list as just about anyone.
And talking outside of this project and more in terms of GWE, I don't think you can undersell her as a brick and mortar type wrestler. Because she has so many great matches she gets grouped in with wrestlers who's cases are made on great matches. She is near the top of the list in terms of people who helped make other wrestlers great (both in her prime and well after) and contribute tangibly to the culture wherever she was. What she brought to company, a roster, a feud, or a wrestling landscape even was sort of singular. I don't think Bull quite brought the same gravitas and danger to the point where conquering her didn't mean as much as conquering Aja. Dump was maybe close, but it was different in so many way. Aja gets comped to Vader a lot, but Aja is better (IMO) at a lot of things in terms of giving, timing, and all the other things that make sure everyone benefits from her skills. The way she gradually gives and sells through a match is maybe second to none. I would actually liken her to Mick Foley in that way, fully understanding what she brings to the table and how to use it to help make everyone around her better. That is something I really value and that is something I think she has done even up to All In recently
For the Lawler comparison, how many great matches per year was he putting on outside of, say, '81-'87? I am genuinely asking. I am fairly familiar with his 80s work and I know he has some bangers outside of that, but was he churning them out at such a pace that he runs away from Aja in terms of longevity?
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Post by elliott on Aug 19, 2019 18:46:40 GMT -5
Well sure, but I'm not arguing that she's not a top 100 wrestler of all time. I'm challenging the idea that she's in the discussion for GOAT regardless of gender and the idea that her longevity challenges people like Lawler, Casas & Tenryu. I voted her 29th in GWE. So its not like I have anywhere close to a low opinion of her career. I'm really just looking for recommendations from a 15ish year period of her post prime career that aren't just the Satomura matches. I'm a huge fan of those two matches from 1990 but Bull was the star of them. Aja was "good" by that point but I'm not sure if she was a top 75 level worker in the world yet in 1990. But I agree with the general point that she probably was involved in as many great matches from 1990-2000 as just about anyone. She isn't low on great matches in her prime. Its that post prime stuff I'm wondering about. She was not good in the limited footage we have from the 80s. To the point where it is shocking to see the wrestler she became vs where she started. Hotta & Hokuto were bringing stuff to the table in legit great matches as early as 87, so that they turned into great wrestlers isn't really a shocker. Aja has maybe the biggest of anyone I've ever seen. That's to her credit for sure. Being brought up through the AJW system in that era and having all those great people to learn from though (especially Bull) obviously helped a lot to. Skipping the larger paragraph because I agree mostly. I think Bull was a more talented & complete wrestler but Aja had more truly great matches...although Aja definitely has certain contextual advantages to be sure. I prefer Dump's peak matches & 2 year stretch, but that's purely a personal stylistic preferences situation (they were not stylistically similar wrestlers at their peaks, contrary to popular belief) but Aja absolutely crushes Dump when it comes to longevity. Dump's 2000s comeback work that I've seen is terrible and it'd be hard to find a bigger english speaking Dump Masumoto fanboy than me. Your general point though is that Aja was awesome and I agree with that. I'm not arguing against her peak run or her 90-01 overall. I'm just looking for recommendations on non-Satomura matches that Aja had post 2001 that shows her working at an all time great level with the longevity to match Lawler, Casas & Tenryu. I'm not trying to be an asshole or prove anyone wrong here. I'm an Aja fan and I want to watch the matches! Aja will turn 49 years old in September. So she's still 2 years younger than Tenryu when he had his huge comeback year in 2001 that everyone went gaga over at the time. Has Aja had a comparable run to Tenryu's 2001 in the last 10 years because I want to watch allllll of it if she did. Its not truly a fair comparison and the answer is still yes. Via the big tape traders, we have access to literally every match Aja ever had on Television or commercial release. We can't come close to saying that for Lawler simply due to the nature of technology. A VCR cost almost $1300 in 1977 according to google. Still, the giant goodhelmet Lawler set has 7 discs (14 hours) of pre 1981 footage, and remember Lawler was out for almost all of 1980 with the broken leg. Also keep in mind Lawler was 32 years old in 1981 having debuted in 1970. So in terms of age Lawler from 1970-1981 was the same as Aja from 1991-2002. So isn't the truly fair comparison how does Aja's 2002-present compare with Lawler's 1981-1998? All kidding aside, with limited complete footage 70s Lawler has great stuff with Dundee, Race, Fargo & I remember digging that Jack Brisco match but its been a long time since I've seen it. Tag matches include the legendary tag with Dundee vs Hayes & Gordy where Hayes poops his pants in the middle of a legit great studio tag. There's a Lawler/Gibson vs Condrey & Hickerson match from Tupelo I really want to watch because I don't remember it but Phil Hickerson is my dude. Anyway the point is, even with limited footage, there's clearly great stuff in the 1970s. We have a ton more footage from 1980, but Lawler was out with the broken leg. Post 87? I mean, dear god. You have the entire feud with one legged Kerry that had multiple great matches. Feud with Hennig before he went to the WWF. vs Eddie Gilbert was 3rd for WON Feud of year in 1988, vs Kerry was 9th. Bunches of matches from 90-2010s with Bill Dundee. The entire feud with the Snowman. The Dream Machine Coward's Way Out match. Bunches of matches from 90-2000s with Terry Funk. WWF feud with Bret Hart. Lawler & Jarrett vs Moondogs was the 1992 WON Feud of the year over Jumbo & Co vs Misawa & Co (think about that). He had a great match with Tommy Dreamer which probably no one else ever did. These are just the major things like Feuds of the Year candidates w/ multiple great matches or the 50th great Dundee match. There's plenty of other things I haven't mentioned/forgot about. Like I just remembered the Miz matches that were really good at a time when no one had good matches with Miz. So I think it is more than fair to say that Lawler churned out more than enough stuff post prime that he outpaces Aja. Lawler is a bad point of comparison though because he has as much great shit on film as just about anyone other than Rey and maybe Flair. But if you want to go simply by longest time between great matches Lawler is looking at like 1974-2011. Anyway, none of this is to say Aja is bad or anything. Like I said I voted her 29th in GWE, entirely on that 1990-2001 run. I'm looking for the stuff she did after that stretch that would be comparable to Lawler having the 1992 Feud of the Year or Tenryu's 2001 run because I want to watch it.
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Post by Cap on Aug 19, 2019 20:38:59 GMT -5
I think what it boils down to is a different emphasis on longevity. For one, I don't necessarily mean "GREAT" matches when I say someone has longevity So when I said she has longevity I did not intend to imply she had the same kind of longevity as Lawler, Funk, Flair, Tenryu, Casas, etc. I simply meant that she made significant contributions for a pretty substantial period of time. Second, I just don't emphasize longevity as much as some. I was genuinely curious about your case for Lawler (though I would never argue she has the same longevity as Lawler). I haven't messed around a ton with his work outside the 80s and early 90s. I have cherry picked here and there for sure, but I wouldn't be the person to go to for Lawler recs.
But nothing here changes my mind that Aja is a contender for best to do it because her case is made by her high end matches during her peak, being an almost singular performer in women's wrestling, and being - as I put it earlier - a brick and mortar type wrestler for much of her career.
I don't want to harp too much on the Lawler/Aja comparison, but I think its a matter of how personal tastes inform criteria and emphasis (and vice versa). I think for me, Lawler would likely be top 30 (could def be as high as 15ish), so I have a lot of time for both, but my own preference for Aja is very much a personal taste issue. I just like her best work a good bit more than I like Lawlers (and I love Lawler's best). Aja has more matches in my top 100 for example, 3-2. That gap would probably get a good bit bigger if it were a top 200 or 300. It would start to narrow again by 500 I think and Lawler would definitely have more in a top 1000. Ultimately, I think that says a lot about what I think of Aja and what her relative strengths are.
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Post by elliott on Aug 20, 2019 3:11:31 GMT -5
Cap said Well, tetsujin when arguing she should be considered a GOATC specifically mentioned longevity playing key role in Casas, Lawler & Tenryu being considered GOATCs and that she was comparable to them with a run from 1990-2018. That's what I am addressing when I questioned Aja's longevity. So that's the framework in which I wanted to discuss her longevity as a top tier worker. Also longevity can mean different things. Like Jumbo is considered by many to be a top 10 worker of the 70s, a #1 overall candidate for the 80s and the best from 90-92. That's different from being great for 5 or 6 years and then having the occasional great performance once a year for the next 15 years. Or being really good for 30 years but never great is a form of longevity. So like with everything, "longevity depends on context." Lawler, Casas & Tenryu are all known for being wrestlers who aged well and were great high end wrestlers for decades and into an advanced age. Tenryu had a career year at an age 3 years older than Aja is now. That's who Aja was directly compared to at the start of all this. So that's what we mean when we're talking about longevity in this particular case because that's the idea I'm addressing when asking for recommendations from the past 15 years. Like I said I ranked her 29th during GWE. Honestly if we did it again she'd likely be a little bit lower but still certainly in the top 50. While I also am someone who values peak over longevity, I don't really view Aja as a #1 contender because I don't think her peak is so much greater than everyone else's that it makes up for the fact that other people had longer peaks of similar quality. In terms of Joshi wrestlers, I think Hokuto alone had a higher peak and a similar 13-14 year stretch in quality that overlapped with much of Aja's career and the "Dangerous Queen" was a more truly unique presence than Aja's who was next in an evolutionary line of characters that had always existed in Joshi. Chigusa's peak was a shorter than Aja's but I think Chigusa packed even more into it in terms of high end quality and was a more versatile wrestler and was the most over character in the history of wrestling at her peak. Devil was having terrific matches as early as 1980 and great stuff as late as 2000 GAEA. She is about as well rounded a wrestler in the world during her peak. I think you'd probably agree Kandori's top tier is likely as good as if not better than Aja's AND Kandori was an even more unique presence in the Joshi scene than Aja. I know everyone likes Aja more than Bull but I probably agree with ohtani's jacket's old quote about Bull being a better wrestler but Aja having better matches. Bull was at her peak during the transitional period of AJW when all their prior generation of stars was retiring & before the interpromotional stuff. Bull was stuck working with a bunch of youngsters with no real peers until she made Aja. If 1990 Bull got to work with 1994 Aja instead of 1990 Aja....And of course there's Jaguar. And this is just the women. Aja is 3 years younger than Kenta Kobashi and debuted 2 years before he did. They're generational peers. Do Aja's peak top tier matches blow away Kenta Kobashis? If she always even the best worker in her best matches (thinking of Queendom Tag)? If her top tier peak is so great that she should be considered a GOAT candidate, shouldn't more than 3 of her matches make your top 100, one of which she might not be the best....or second best, worker in the match? Again, I ranked Aja 29th overall and she's been one of my favorites since I was a teenager. I'm super familiar with her peak. Its the post prime mid 2000s-2010s stuff I want to see. In the end everything comes down to personal tastes. If these projects have taught me anything it really comes down to that and the fact that being the 30th or 50th or 99th or 250th best wrestler or match of all time isn't an insult its an incredible compliment.
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Post by Cap on Aug 20, 2019 6:16:26 GMT -5
Cap said In terms of Joshi wrestlers, I think Hokuto alone had a higher peak and a similar 13-14 year stretch in quality that overlapped with much of Aja's career and the "Dangerous Queen" was a more truly unique presence than Aja's who was next in an evolutionary line of characters that had always existed in Joshi. Chigusa's peak was a shorter than Aja's but I think Chigusa packed even more into it in terms of high end quality and was a more versatile wrestler and was the most over character in the history of wrestling at her peak. Devil was having terrific matches as early as 1980 and great stuff as late as 2000 GAEA. She is about as well rounded a wrestler in the world during her peak. I think you'd probably agree Kandori's top tier is likely as good as if not better than Aja's AND Kandori was an even more unique presence in the Joshi scene than Aja. I know everyone likes Aja more than Bull but I probably agree with ohtani's jacket's old quote about Bull being a better wrestler but Aja having better matches. Bull was at her peak during the transitional period of AJW when all their prior generation of stars was retiring & before the interpromotional stuff. Bull was stuck working with a bunch of youngsters with no real peers until she made Aja. If 1990 Bull got to work with 1994 Aja instead of 1990 Aja....And of course there's Jaguar. And this is just the women. Aja is 3 years younger than Kenta Kobashi and debuted 2 years before he did. They're generational peers. Do Aja's peak top tier matches blow away Kenta Kobashis? If she always even the best worker in her best matches (thinking of Queendom Tag)? If her top tier peak is so great that she should be considered a GOAT candidate, shouldn't more than 3 of her matches make your top 100, one of which she might not be the best....or second best, worker in the match? I would also say Hokuto and Kandori are in that conversation for me. Those would be my top three women in the conversation. And maybe for context, when I say "in that conversation" that by no means automatically means they are a number one. I didn't put a list together. I am just talking bout people that as of right this second.... who would I start with in the top tier and see where things go. That top tier could have anywhere from 20-30 people. The chances of her being above Kobashi are honestly slim and none. But having 3 matches in my top 100 doesn't at all exclude her from being the GOAT for me. Eddie Guerrero also only has 3 on my list and he is in that conversation for me. Funk has 3 and Flair only had 3 on last years list (4 now) and and they are both deeply ingrained in that conversation Bryan 4, Tenryu 3, Robinson 2, Liger 2, Bockwinkle 1, Savage 1... All guys that would at least get consideration. Hell, Lawler has 2 and I admitted he would likely be in that 15-30 range on gut feeling.
I would also argue that she might not have been the best worker in the queendom tag, but I'd say she was at least on equal footing or the star of the show in the Hotta and Kaoru matches (both on my list), as well as the Dynamite match (a bubble match) and the Satomora matches. Additionally, I think she is easily the best wrestler in any of her highly rated Toyota matches. Not that I dislike Toyota. I just think Aja makes those matches.
I know you weren't responding to me outright with the original longevity/GOAT discussion, but I think for me it is just a matter of not having a super strict framework for saying "possible GOAT" because I have never made and submitted a list. I have never gone through the actual process of sorting my criteria and then diving into wrestlers systematically. Its much more of a feeling, a gut response of sorts I guess.
I guess what I am trying to say is I could watch Aja spinning back fist people's heads off until the end of time and where I come from that still means something, haha.
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Post by elliott on Aug 20, 2019 17:58:00 GMT -5
I get that you're just going on a feeling, but I'm trying to dig deeper than that and specifically address the hypothesis put forward that she's a GOATC because she has longevity that compares to Lawler, Casas & Tenryu. I know tetsujin was the one that made this point, but you "agreed completely" in response to this idea and went on to say Aja's "undeniable" consistency & longevity were your reasons for likely ranking Aja above Kandori.
Kong may very well have a post prime run that compares to Tenryu, Casas & Lawler. Post 2000 Joshi is really underexplored, even in comparison to Joshi. So I'm looking for some recommendations for top tier stuff from that time period because thats the sort of post-prime run that she would need to be a GOATC.
I figured you'd participated in GWE. I think if you take the time and think about things from a historical perspective you'll find that Aja's 6-7 year run isn't so outrageously great that you could justify ranking her "anywhere" on a top 100 list, including top 5 or 10 (tetsujin's original theory) when you compare it to the other outrageously great runs in wrestling history. She would need that additional 15 years of not just "good stuff" but great-best in the world candidate for stretches to be a real GOATC. That's why I'm so focused on getting some actual recommendations from her a 15+year stretch from her post-prime.
Loss' opinion isn't the end all be all, but his threads in the 90s subforum on PWO is a great resource. I went through his matches of the months and here is every match Aja had in the 90s Loss rated above 4 stars: Aja Kong, Grizzly Iwamoto & Bison Kimura vs Manami Toyota, Mika Takahashi & Kaoru Maeda (Hamada's UWF 06/04/90) Aja Kong & Bison Kimura vs Bull Nakano & Grizzly Iwamoto (AJW 08/19/90) Aja Kong, Bison Kimura, Madusa Miceli, Tarantula & Xochilt Hamada vs Manami Toyota, Mariko Yoshida, Kaoru Maeda, Mika Takahashi & Esther Moreno (Hamada's UWF 11/17/90) Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (AJW Wrestlemarinepiad 11/14/90) Aja Kong & Bison Kimura vs Manami Toyota & Esther Moreno (AJW 04/29/91) Aja Kong & Bison Kimura vs Bull Nakano & Kyoko Inoue (AJW 06/18/91) Aja Kong & Bison Kimura vs Akira Hokuto & Bull Nakano (AJW 12/09/91) Aja Kong & Bison Kimura vs Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada (AJW 03/20/92) Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (AJW 04/25/92) Aja Kong, Bull Nakano & Kyoko Inoue vs Toshiyo Yamada, Yumiko Hotta & Mariko Yoshida (AJW 09/15/92) Aja Kong & Kyoko Inoue vs Bull Nakano & Akira Hokuto (AJW 11/2/92) Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (AJW Dream Rush 11/26/92) Aja Kong & Kyoko Inoue vs Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada (AJW 12/13/92) Aja Kong & Kyoko Inoue vs Manami Toyota & Yumiko Hotta (AJW 4/24/93) JWP Thunderqueen 07/31/93 Aja Kong vs Dynamite Kansai (AJW 08/25/93) Aja Kong & Sakie Hasegawa vs Manami Toyota & Akira Hokuto (AJW 11/12/93) Aja Kong vs Megumi Kudo (AJW 12/6/93) Aja Kong vs Yumiko Hotta (AJW 01/24/94) Aja Kong & Bull Nakano vs Akira Hokuto & Shinobu Kandori (AJW Queendom 03/27/94) Aja Kong vs Manami Toyota (AJW Big Egg Universe 11/20/94) Aja Kong vs Manami Toyota (AJW 03/26/95) Aja Kong vs Manami Toyota (AJW 6/27/95) Aja Kong vs Dynamite Kansai (AJW 08/30/95) Aja Kong vs Kyoko Inoue (AJW 08/30/96) Aja Kong & Kyoko Inoue vs Etsuko Mita & Mima Shimoda (AJW 08/09/97) Aja Kong vs Mariko Yoshida (ARSION 06/21/98) (not rated 4* by Loss but I like it so I added it) Aja Kong & Mayumi Ozaki vs Meiko Satomura & Sonoko Kato (GAEA 04/04/99) Aja Kong vs Meiko Satomura (GAEA 09/15/99)
It kind of looks like Aja's top "6-7 years" might actually just be at best 92-95 in terms of output.
Moving away from Loss' rankings we've got OJ's 2000 Joshi MOTYs and he had at 2&3 respectively: Aja Kong vs. Meiko Satomura, GAEA 5/16/00 Aja Kong vs. KAORU, GAEA 2/13/00
Goodhelmet's 2000s MOTYC Comps have: Aja Kong vs Meiko Satomura (Sendai Pro Wrestling 7/9/06) Aja Kong vs Meiko Satomura (SENDAI 10/26/08) Aja Kong vs. Meiko Satomura, (SENDAI 4/9/10)
Our own forum has nominated as a top 100 GME contender Aja Kong vs Hikaru Shida (Oz Academy 9/17/18)
Its worth noting we only have 12 total Aja Kong matches nominated in the forum. This list includes 34 total matches. Which is less matches than Jumbo Tsuruta has nominated so far. Flair has 40 matches total just on the various DVDVR 80s sets and they didn't even do the JCP/WCW set.
The point of listing this out isn't too prove things one way or another, just to get sort of a baseline for her candidacy. I'm thinking just by looking at this for Aja to be a more realistic GOATC we're going to need a much deeper look at the post-prime stuff.
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Post by elliott on Aug 21, 2019 4:42:58 GMT -5
Also wanted to point out before anyone gets mistaken. There's no magic number of great matches or number of years as a great wrestler that makes someone the GOAT or even a candidate. Also great matches in and of themselves are not the only measure of a great wrestler. Of course I tend to think that great wrestlers, especially the best of the best, tended to have great matches.
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