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Vader
Jul 18, 2019 15:24:45 GMT -5
Post by Cap on Jul 18, 2019 15:24:45 GMT -5
Vader is one of those guys who wound up with two matches on my initial list, but might fall off all together next time. His best work sort of peaks right under the 5 star mark for me. His very best vs Takada might stick around. Regardless, Vader is a deceptively versatile worker with excellent matches in at least 4 - 5 promotions (more really). He offers something for everyone.
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Vader
Jul 21, 2019 3:24:50 GMT -5
Post by elliott on Jul 21, 2019 3:24:50 GMT -5
I think versatile is the wrong word. I prefer to describe Vader as universal. When I see a wrestler described as versatile, I always think of people like Fujinami, Otsuka, Casas, Barry Windham, Funk, Buddy Rose etc. Guys who worked a lot of different styles & settings. Past a certain (early) point in his career (probably 1988 or 89) Vader was always Vader wherever he went. He'd add stuff: The moonsault, powerbomb & chokeslam but to me he was always Vader. I never saw much of a difference in what Vader brought to the table whether he was against Luger, Sting, Takada or Tamura.
This isn't a criticism, nor is it meant to be a backhanded compliment. Vader was awesome, had a shit ton of great matches ever and really it is a testament to his ability that he figured out a way to work where he could get over as a top guy in any promotion or country in the world regardless of opponent.
I'm hesitant to use the word "formula" because it has such a negative connotation (which I disagree with on some level but thats another topic) so maybe i'll say Vader found a template that worked for him and allowed him to have great matches against a lot of different folks. But he never really varied from that template and I think thats part of the reason he didn't have a match make my top 100. Compare him to someone like Stan Hansen who I would describe as deceptively versatile. Hansen worked radically different against Carlos Colon & Curt Hennig than he did against Terry Funk & Antonio Inoki. Vader never had match like Hansen did against young Leon himself where he carried a limited green worker to a long slow paced MOTYC build around holds.
I also hate to say "Low Ceiling" for a guy who I do think had all time great matches (he might not have a top 100 match but he'd have several top 200 for me I think) but I think Vader's the all time High Floor Low Ceiling Guy. (Maybe Arn Anderson is the best High Floor Low Ceiling example.)
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Vader
Jul 21, 2019 8:42:23 GMT -5
Post by Cap on Jul 21, 2019 8:42:23 GMT -5
That is probably true, I just meant that he could be placed in a number of context and thrive. I suppose we were just placing different connotations on the word, but I'm good with universal.
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Vader
Jul 28, 2019 20:48:22 GMT -5
Post by elliott on Jul 28, 2019 20:48:22 GMT -5
Did he have less muscle definition of anyone to regularly flex in a match?
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Vader
Sept 8, 2019 5:26:38 GMT -5
Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 5:26:38 GMT -5
Best Vader tag match? Probably the Vader/Bigelow vs Muto/Hase match from 92? Anything else close to that level?
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Vader
Sept 8, 2019 8:03:01 GMT -5
Post by nintendologic on Sept 8, 2019 8:03:01 GMT -5
The 1998 RWTL final of Burning vs. Vader/Hansen is better.
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Vader
Sept 8, 2019 11:54:17 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by tetsujin on Sept 8, 2019 11:54:17 GMT -5
The 1998 RWTL final of Burning vs. Vader/Hansen is better. That's probably the most underrated 90s AJPW match ever. Just perfect.
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Vader
Sept 8, 2019 14:37:42 GMT -5
Post by bossrock on Sept 8, 2019 14:37:42 GMT -5
Agreed, love that match. One of the last great Hansen matches.
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Vader
Sept 11, 2019 2:55:56 GMT -5
Post by elliott on Sept 11, 2019 2:55:56 GMT -5
Anything particularly interesting from NOAH?
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Vader
Sept 11, 2019 6:57:27 GMT -5
Post by Cap on Sept 11, 2019 6:57:27 GMT -5
A little switch in topic, but I was just looking through my dorky match ratings/notes and I was looking at Vader. As far as two year periods go, Vader'ss 93/94 is up there with the best I think. Just as far as the top highlights (and I am sure there is stuff I am forgetting, leaving out, haven't taken notes on, etc):
v Sting (Strap Match - 2/21/1993) v Takada (12/5/1993) v Flair (12/27/1993) v Tamura (6/10/1994) v Takada (8/18/1994) v Guardian Angel (10/23/1994) v Rhodes (11/16/1994)
That doesn't include v Sting from Starrcade (just missing the cutoff at 12/28/1992) and v Sting from Slamboree (5/22/1994 - which some people like a lot more than I do).
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Vader
Sept 12, 2019 3:17:03 GMT -5
Post by elliott on Sept 12, 2019 3:17:03 GMT -5
Honestly, I see no reason to limit it to just a two year stretch as I think Vader's 1992 is on the level of 93 & 94. He has the two big Sting matches that both of which I've seen called the best Vader/Sting match before, you've got the team with Bigelow in NJPW that has really good stuff with Muto/Hase, Steiners, & Hash/Chono. There's the fun tag with Mr Hughes against the Steiners and terrific TV match with Dustin in November.
He was a great worker before 1992 and his 89-91 is terrific stretch by itself, but I think 1992 is the beginning of his all time great run.
I know you're doing it off the top of your head but you're leaving off some pretty big things and some small things that pad his 93 & 94. In addition to what you named, 93-94 has: All the Cactus matches. Davey Boy Smith matches Steamboat TV matches Vader/Austin vs Flair/Arn WCW Saturday Night 11/93 All of the short non-Takada UWFi matches are fun. vs Nakano, Yamazaki Sano are all worth watching. None are on the Tamura level. But fun matches The Boss Spring Stampede match The Sting Fall Brawl match UWFi Tag with Tenta against Albright & Yamazaki
I'm not sure if we split things down into individual years, Vader would be the obvious best wrestler in the world in any one year. 92 has Nakano, Liger & Casas having great years. 93 has Hansen, Kobashi & Hokuto all having consensus GOAT years. 1994 is probably the closest he got to being the best in the world for a year, but I'm lower on Kawada than anyone and I think most would call that his career year. I think cumulatively from 92-94 either Vader or Tenryu are probably the best in the world in some order.
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Vader
Sept 12, 2019 6:54:50 GMT -5
Post by Cap on Sept 12, 2019 6:54:50 GMT -5
Ahhh man... i forgot a lot, especially the Cactus stuff, which for some reason I thought was 92 in my head.
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Vader
Sept 16, 2019 10:52:34 GMT -5
Post by nintendologic on Sept 16, 2019 10:52:34 GMT -5
Anything particularly interesting from NOAH? Not really. He fractured his arm during the 2000 Champion Carnival and was never the same afterward. Super heavyweights are like running backs: when they hit the wall, they hit it hard.
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Vader
Sept 17, 2019 4:32:15 GMT -5
Post by El Mckell on Sept 17, 2019 4:32:15 GMT -5
Did he have less muscle definition of anyone to regularly flex in a match? Earthquake?
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Vader
Sept 18, 2019 23:47:08 GMT -5
Post by elliott on Sept 18, 2019 23:47:08 GMT -5
Earthquake is a good pick for that. I watched the Vader vs Ken Shamrock match 5/12/97 A Cold Day in Hell and that match was fucking awesome. It isn't on the level of the PWFG Naoki Sano match, but has to be the best of the rest of Shamrock matches, right? Maybe one of those 98 Owen matches? Anyway, Vader was awesome dominating Shamrock but also put him over huge bumping around like a fool. Really wish we could have gotten a real series between these two. My Jim Ross hatred continues to be strong.
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