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Post by Cap on Sept 27, 2019 8:03:39 GMT -5
I wanted to wait till I had time to really go through this conversation in some detail before replying. I wound up not having a ton to ask, but I also happened to pull up the 91 Kawada/Taue match this past weekend while I was cruisin' some 90s AJPW stuff I hadn't seen in a while or hadn't seen period. I admit that I found it refreshing. Admittedly, Elliot and I are of a similar ilk with regard to bloody brawls. So, as much as I love 90s AJPW and particularly the pillars, I really sympathize with the desire to see that sprinkled throughout some of those feuds. To me it makes perfect sense. I was watching some of the Hansen/Kobashi matches as well and Kobashi seems like the perfect type of baby face to have a solid 10 minute bloody brawl to elevate the heat in a fued. All this is of course tabling personal or business reasons to not feature blood; I am just talking about what I would like to see. I think it really would have added some layers and variety to some of the biggest rivalries in wrestling history. I admit that I can get some awesome match fatigue when I am watching lots of pillars matches in a row. Same way I get it during the G1 this year or even when I was watching a lot of the high end stuff in Progress from 2016 to early 2018 Not all of this stuff is at the same level of course. However, it is wrestling I really enjoy that I see plenty of detail and nuance in, but it also can burn me out after a while if I don't go watch something a little different. For my tastes a few sprint brawls with a crimson mask or two could have added a great deal to this era of wrestling and - if done well - would have flexed some diversity muscles for the pillars (which I think all four display in some way shape or form, but never really commit to in the prime of the run)
But I also suppose the real issues are that 1) that is just my taste and it isn't everyone's cup of tea and 2) it is easy to assume that would work in context, but I am not 100% sure it would have. I can't personally think of a great reason they couldn't have pulled it off, but I wasn't living in Japan in the 90s. I didn't have my finger on the pulse of Japanese wrestling and culture. I was in elementary and middle school trying to figure out how to be cool and impress girls. I think nintendologic raises good points about those expectations and the larger wrestling landscape. Just because I think it would be awesome (and I really really do) doesn't mean it would work and it impossible to know how that would have affected the ebbs and flows of the rivalries and the feuds. In turn, if that is someone's absolute favorite time/place in wrestling history (and that holds true for a lot of people), it makes total sense to not really be interested in the idea.
I don't say this to play peacekeeper or anything. Nintendologic and Elliot are adults and seemed to move on so there is no need for it, But I started into this on Monday and pondered it for part of the week and I really think the conflict ultimately speaks to the strengths of both Taue and Kawada (at least for me). The main reason, the primary evidence I would point to for why I can imagine why adding some bloody brawls to the mix would be great is the 91 match between the two. The secondary reason is how they functioned as a tag team. They always struck me as a gritty, no nonsense team in a world of pretty boys. Obviously the big tag matches go long and are very much in the genre, but Taue and Kawada always seemed like guys that could really easily shift into a different style all together (and they proved it early in the decade). However, even in proving they could do my favorite style of wrestling and kinda making me want to see it more, they wind up churning out long, epic, (almost) universally undeniable bangers in a very different style all the same. It almost makes me appreciate how good they were at doing what they did. They took a style that I love but 1) isn't my number one with a bullet favorite style and 2) can tucker me out sometimes and they produced some of the best wrestling - for my money - ever, which is why its all over my list.
This brings me back to Kawada. I go back and forth on where I rank Kawada to be honest. Its all nit picky. I think he is great, but how great is the question. Kobashi will probably forever be my favorite pillar (he would probably be my #1 or #2 in a GWE list), but its hard for me to discern where the other three rank. In honestly, the discussion here has just complicated things, but in the best way possible. Kawada to me fits in better in a brawl than he does in the kings road style. Honestly, sometimes he feels out of place to me, but then when the action starts he forces his way into place and that is sort of awesome.
p.s. I think Dandy/Azteca and Dandy/Satanico are classic matches haha.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 27, 2019 17:56:45 GMT -5
I feel the same way re: Kobashi as the best pillar and my #1 or 2 for a GWE list. And while I think Misawa has higher peaks than Kawada, I keep finding myself thinking Kawada has a stronger argument. He had more variety and greater match quality in the latter half of his career.
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Post by elliott on Sept 30, 2019 1:16:58 GMT -5
Sept 27, 2019 6:03:39 GMT -7 Cap said: And Kawada seems like the perfect sort of heel to work over a cut! The trademark Kawada short head kicks only Kobashi's covered in blood? That wouldn't have been awesome? Same. Same. And its not just the pillars matches against each other. Its that the structure of every AJPW match is basically the exact same the only real difference is will it go 20 minutes or 40 minutes? Skipping ahead Exactly I just can't support this argument. I understand the idea of not wanting to see Misawa vs Kawada work a 13 minute match. In theory it means there would be one less 25+ minute Misawa vs Kawada match. I know the idea that there would only be 13 Misawa vs Kawada singles matches that went 25+ minutes instead of 14 is horrifying and unspeakable but bear with me for a second. Forget the idea of 2 pillars having a 10 minute match based around striking. The pillars couldn't have a DreamSlam I main event? Them trying wasn't worth 1 of 14 Misawa vs Kawada single matches? Ok set aside blood & gimmicks and go back to shorter matches based around striking where submissions haven't been completely devalued.... Battle Formation 1996 April 29, 1996 in Tokyo, JapanTokyo Dome drawing 55,000 ($5,700,000)Yuji Nagata & Tokimitsu Ishizawa beat Shinjiro Ohtani & Koji Kanemoto (11:20) when Nagata pinned Kanemoto. Riki Choshu, Takashi Iizuka, Osamu Nishimura, & Satoshi Kojima beat Shiro Koshinaka, Kuniaki Kobayashi, Tatsutoshi Goto, & Akira Nogami (11:04) when Choshu pinned Nogami. Great Sasuke pinned Jushin Liger (19:27) to win the IWGP Junior Hvywt Title. Randy Savage pinned Hiroyoshi Tenzan (9:49). Masa Chono beat Lex Luger (14:37) via submission. The Road Warriors & Power Warrior beat Rick & Scott Steiner & Scott Norton (15:17) when Animal pinned Rick. Great Muta pinned Jinsei Shinzaki (19:44). Genichiro Tenryu pinned Tatsumi Fujinami (9:16). Shinya Hashimoto beat Nobuhiko Takada (12:33) via submission to win the IWGP Title.
One of the 3 biggest shows in the history of wrestling at this point in time. Smack in the middle of the pillars prime.
I wasn't living in Japan in 1996, but in South Carolina doing the same things you were. But I can easily infer that the larger/broader Japanese Wrestling Landscape would have accepted main-events that were less than 25 minutes and worked around striking. Shit, there's at least 2 matches with blood on the card too. Now, we could say that AJPW fans were different and expected more from their wrestlers, particularly the pillars. You'd have to ask why? Was it because they only watched AJPW? No. AJPW fans clearly watched other wrestling. Its why Vader was over as a main eventer right away. They knew him. Its why Kawada going for a cross armbreaker against Gary Albright gets a huge pop in Budokan in October 1995. Those fans know Albright and they know the cross armbreaker. Shoot style move against a shoot style worker. And we know that they would accept a different, less excessively over the top style of wrestling because NJPW was doing just that and was more successful in this very era. We can argue over the quality of matches (and no, I'm not saying NJPW heavies were better than the pillars), or whether AJPW would have been more interesting if they'd tried some different, but what we shouldn't spend time on if these ideas (shorter matches/blood/striking/submissions) would have been acceptable by the larger wrestling landscape. They were. We know this unequivocally. One of my original points in this whole side argument is that I see no reason why the Pillars couldn't have had fantastic matches that were shorter and less excessive and or bloody brawls AND do the classic 90s AJPW Pillars Main Event everyone loves other than the company only booked them to work the one way. It is even more bizarre that people who think they're the GOAT wrestlers are also the ones that seem to think they couldn't have a great 10 minute match. But I realize that we're all living in bizarro world. Ok, now set aside the idea of them working short matches. NL's original line I took issue with that sent us down this road was this: "On the other hand, the Pillars likely wouldn't have developed as workers to the degree that they did if they had blood and gimmicks to fall back on." Does anyone who thinks the Pillars are the GOAT wrestlers also think they couldn't have pulled off something like the DreamSlam I main event? Following this logic...Since they're the clear GOATs and blood & shortcuts would have stunted their growth, once they were in their peak and "developed" wouldn't their attempt at a DreamSlam I type match have been like a mind blowing earth shattering experience given how great DreamSlam I was (something many who call the pillars the clear GOATs agree with) in spite of Hokuto & Kandori being tainted wrestlers having been "developed" in systems that allowed for blood and shortcuts? And If all of this is true, AJPW fan isn't willing to sacrifice 1 of 14 Misawa vs Kawada singles matches in favor of trying something different one time? WTF, AJPW fan? In a GWE sort of poll I'd rank them: Kobashi Taue Misawa Kawada If we were just talking peak I'd go: Kobashi Misawa Taue Kawada I don't think it was a real question but more of a strawman being built
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Post by microstatistics on Sept 30, 2019 4:36:34 GMT -5
Interesting you rank Kawada last for peak as well. I'd have him atleast #2 for peak. I like Kobashi as #1 for peak though. Misawa and Kawada on their very best day might have been better but their peaks don't come close to the sheer longevity of Kobashi's.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 30, 2019 18:51:48 GMT -5
I would put Kawada behind both Misawa and Kobashi in terms of peak, but I think he still wins in longevity and variety of opponents.
And I gave the Naoya Ogawa match a watch. Great stuff.
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Post by elliott on Oct 1, 2019 14:48:10 GMT -5
Micro Said I'm getting to the point where I feel about Kawada what DylanWaco feels about Jumbo. I just find it hard to watch the guy even in matches I know are "great." Many of the things I used to actively like about Kawada, I don't really like anymore. That "realistic selling" knockout spot he does in literally every match is something I absolutely hate and more often than not I think is rolled out merely to pop the crowd. Now in the abstract there's nothing wrong with a wrestler using a trademark spot in a completely meaningless fashion designed only to pop the crowd....but when the trademark spot is "realistic selling" of a knockout blow used in literally every single match and the guy is pimped as the "best seller and psychologist" in history, it stands out as way more jarring than if it was simply wrestler x using trademark spot y in a completely meaningless fashion designed only to pop the crowd. I also think his penchant for violence is really overstated as is his selling. And for the love of god, he has the widest variation on the quality of his lariats of anyone I've ever seen in my life. This is all to say nothing of the general stylistic issues I have with 90s AJPW in terms of match length and overkill. So I struggle to define his peak. I probably like more Kawada matches from the 90-93 period than any other stretch in his career, but I don't think it would be fair to include 1990 or 91 as part of his "peak." 94-96 feels more accurate as far as defining his peak, but there are enough examples of matches I struggle with in that stretch that I feel totally comfortable putting him 4th behind the rest. Bossrock said: At what point was Kawada better than Kobashi? Like just those years before Kobashi got started wrestling or that time he was out with cancer? Those shouldn't count
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Post by nintendologic on Oct 1, 2019 15:05:50 GMT -5
How can anyone hate Kawada selling being knocked out? Do you also hate puppies and rainbows and the laughter of children?
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Post by bossrock on Oct 1, 2019 18:47:18 GMT -5
At what point was Kawada better than Kobashi? Like just those years before Kobashi got started wrestling or that time he was out with cancer? Those shouldn't count Post 2005-Kobashi is honestly a period I haven't seen a ton of, but the guy was clearly slowing down and not what he used to be. I think Kawada did a better job of adapting and having great post-pillars matches going as far as 2008 against Tanahashi. Early 90's is something I need to do a bit more comparative work on as I think Kawada was better than Misawa in at least '90 and '91 (he and Taue were absolutely the stars of those trios matches). But I would take Kobashi over him from '93 possibly to 2004. But I feel like Kawada was able to go at a higher level with a more diverse amount opponents for longer.
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Post by bossrock on Oct 1, 2019 19:05:55 GMT -5
I will say that "Who was the best Pillar?" might be my favorite debate in all of wrestling (although it certainly helps as 90's AJPW is still my jam). I've seen so many varying opinions and takes on each one.
Misawa is often the consensus "best" for his insane peak performances and masterful psychology and selling, yet lots of folks ding him for his character work and lack of variety in high-end matches.
Kawada is often considered the "cool" pick because he was more emotional than Misawa but not histrionic like Kobashi. Some love his stiffness, selling, and intensity in matches and others think he lacks the peaks of the others and his selling and offense was overrated.
When it comes to Kobashi, the biggest criticisms seem to be his affinity for the dramatic and the excess of his Noah matches. I recall a tweet from DylanWaco saying something along the lines that in the late 90's-early 00's he was often considered below the level of Misawa and Kawada and only few would really consider him as the GOAT. Yet a lot of us here hold the sentiment that he was the best due to his selling, offense, and peak performances.
When it comes to Taue, I've heard everything from "he was overrated" to "he was awesome but not quite as good as others" to "he was the best". There are times when he still seems underrated (even by me).
When it comes to Jun, the only consistent opinion I've come across is that he's one of the best wrestlers of the 21st century although I continue to be amazed by great he was so early in his career in the 90's (which I know isn't a new revelation, but still).
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Post by Cap on Oct 2, 2019 19:02:07 GMT -5
That "realistic selling" knockout spot he does in literally every match is something I absolutely hate and more often than not I think is rolled out merely to pop the crowd. Now in the abstract there's nothing wrong with a wrestler using a trademark spot in a completely meaningless fashion designed only to pop the crowd....but when the trademark spot is "realistic selling" of a knockout blow used in literally every single match and the guy is pimped as the "best seller and psychologist" in history, it stands out as way more jarring than if it was simply wrestler x using trademark spot y in a completely meaningless fashion designed only to pop the crowd. I also think his penchant for violence is really overstated as is his selling. And for the love of god, he has the widest variation on the quality of his lariats of anyone I've ever seen in my life. This is all to say nothing of the general stylistic issues I have with 90s AJPW in terms of match length and overkill. Three things:
1) Not liking Kawada's KO selling is god damned insane. It is a gift, a boon from the wrestling gods.
2) Ok, honestly though, I get it in this context, but I don't really consider him one of the greatest sellers ever (on the whole) or one of the greats psychologists ever. I suppose if that is the context you are seeing it in I could see feeling some dissonance there. Even still, with regard to the repetition, the psychology of kings road is more or less built around brain damage and concussions so him doing it every match kinda makes sense. I think he had an all time selling spot and that he was overall a very good seller, but that is about it. I am now literally trying to think if I got carried away and called him him one of the best sellers ever (completely possible), but I honestly probably wouldn't put him in the top 20-25 OVERALL sellers. I would, however, put that spot on the single selling spots list (a list I have not made and never will). So, I suppose we are seeing it in two different contexts.
3) Ok... but for real!? What is wrong with you, you fucking heathen?! Kawada selling a KO is THE BEST.
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Post by Cap on Oct 2, 2019 19:10:26 GMT -5
I will say that "Who was the best Pillar?" might be my favorite debate in all of wrestling (although it certainly helps as 90's AJPW is still my jam). I've seen so many varying opinions and takes on each one. Misawa is often the consensus "best" for his insane peak performances and masterful psychology and selling, yet lots of folks ding him for his character work and lack of variety in high-end matches. Kawada is often considered the "cool" pick because he was more emotional than Misawa but not histrionic like Kobashi. Some love his stiffness, selling, and intensity in matches and others think he lacks the peaks of the others and his selling and offense was overrated. When it comes to Kobashi, the biggest criticisms seem to be his affinity for the dramatic and the excess of his Noah matches. I recall a tweet from DylanWaco saying something along the lines that in the late 90's-early 00's he was often considered below the level of Misawa and Kawada and only few would really consider him as the GOAT. Yet a lot of us here hold the sentiment that he was the best due to his selling, offense, and peak performances.When it comes to Taue, I've heard everything from "he was overrated" to "he was awesome but not quite as good as others" to "he was the best". There are times when he still seems underrated (even by me). When it comes to Jun, the only consistent opinion I've come across is that he's one of the best wrestlers of the 21st century although I continue to be amazed by great he was so early in his career in the 90's (which I know isn't a new revelation, but still). I know this is a Kawada thread, but I have genuinely always found the anti-kobashi movement (and I really feel like there was a full on thread of that in a lot of places - including in some of the GWE talk) was baffling. I don't care what anyone thought at any given time, Kobashi was self evidently awesome and his work holds up really really well. I'll save any more conversation I have about him for a full on comparison thread or for his.
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Post by kas on Oct 3, 2019 12:59:34 GMT -5
I'd put Kawada at number 3 in singles matches behind Kobashi and Misawa, and number 1 in tag matches out of the pillars. He was the best pillar in 2000-2001 and post-2005, but his 94-96 peak isn't nearly as high as Kobashi and Misawa's peaks. At the same time, his lows weren't as low as Misawa and Taue. Misawa's NOAH run for me didn't have any stand out matches after the Kobashi match, and Taue's NOAH run was very inconsistent. Longevity is a close one, but I'd put him 3rd behind Misawa and Kobashi for that as well. Still an amazing wrestler, and if I were asked to make a top 50 all-time list, his name would be one of the first on my list.
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Post by elliott on Oct 3, 2019 13:20:43 GMT -5
1) Not liking Kawada's KO selling is god damned insane. It is a gift, a boon from the wrestling gods.
2) Ok, honestly though, I get it in this context, but I don't really consider him one of the greatest sellers ever (on the whole) or one of the greats psychologists ever. I suppose if that is the context you are seeing it in I could see feeling some dissonance there. Even still, with regard to the repetition, the psychology of kings road is more or less built around brain damage and concussions so him doing it every match kinda makes sense. I think he had an all time selling spot and that he was overall a very good seller, but that is about it. I am now literally trying to think if I got carried away and called him him one of the best sellers ever (completely possible), but I honestly probably wouldn't put him in the top 20-25 OVERALL sellers. I would, however, put that spot on the single selling spots list (a list I have not made and never will). So, I suppose we are seeing it in two different contexts.
3) Ok... but for real!? What is wrong with you, you fucking heathen?! Kawada selling a KO is THE BEST.
I disagree. It doesn't make any sense to me for the #2 guy in the promotion to get knocked out in 100% of his matches. ESPECIALLY if the psychology is built around concussions & brain damage (not sure I agree with that, but I'll go with it). How many times did Kawada do the KO spot and then actually get pinned after it? I'm also not sure how trademark selling spots make sense in a promotion that presents itself as a legitimate sport. Its not a trademark reversal or defensive strategy like Fujiwara's Boston Crab Reversal or Don't Powerbomb Kidman. Its a guy with a glass skull who (presumably) knows he gets KO'd all the time who makes no real effort to defend his glass skull and in fact often encourages/leaves open his glass skull for his opponent to cave in. So (in Samuel L Jackson voice) is he just like the dumbest motherfucker who ever lived in terms of strategy? OR. And I'm willing to accept this. But no one will like it. But it makes more sense than him getting KO'd every match. Maybe it worked like Hogan getting hit with Savage's Reviving Elbow? Kawada couldn't reach his competitive zone without getting KO'd first? Or like Lawler was a slow starter, but Kawada only really begins when he's seeing double? Also, Randy Savage sells the knee better than Tosh.
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Post by elliott on Oct 3, 2019 13:26:12 GMT -5
Wanted to be clear on one thing after having fun with the last post.
Its not a terrible spot 100% of the time.
What drives me nuts is that he was so willing to use the KO spot in a completely meaningless fashion early on in matches and then work 20 more minutes as though it never happened.
On the surface its a great and even a "smart" spot. But I often found the way he employed it to be really frustrating.
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Post by Cap on Oct 3, 2019 20:55:14 GMT -5
1) Not liking Kawada's KO selling is god damned insane. It is a gift, a boon from the wrestling gods.
2) Ok, honestly though, I get it in this context, but I don't really consider him one of the greatest sellers ever (on the whole) or one of the greats psychologists ever. I suppose if that is the context you are seeing it in I could see feeling some dissonance there. Even still, with regard to the repetition, the psychology of kings road is more or less built around brain damage and concussions so him doing it every match kinda makes sense. I think he had an all time selling spot and that he was overall a very good seller, but that is about it. I am now literally trying to think if I got carried away and called him him one of the best sellers ever (completely possible), but I honestly probably wouldn't put him in the top 20-25 OVERALL sellers. I would, however, put that spot on the single selling spots list (a list I have not made and never will). So, I suppose we are seeing it in two different contexts.
3) Ok... but for real!? What is wrong with you, you fucking heathen?! Kawada selling a KO is THE BEST.
I disagree. It doesn't make any sense to me for the #2 guy in the promotion to get knocked out in 100% of his matches. ESPECIALLY if the psychology is built around concussions & brain damage (not sure I agree with that, but I'll go with it). How many times did Kawada do the KO spot and then actually get pinned after it? I'm also not sure how trademark selling spots make sense in a promotion that presents itself as a legitimate sport. Its not a trademark reversal or defensive strategy like Fujiwara's Boston Crab Reversal or Don't Powerbomb Kidman. Its a guy with a glass skull who (presumably) knows he gets KO'd all the time who makes no real effort to defend his glass skull and in fact often encourages/leaves open his glass skull for his opponent to cave in. So (in Samuel L Jackson voice) is he just like the dumbest motherfucker who ever lived in terms of strategy? OR. And I'm willing to accept this. But no one will like it. But it makes more sense than him getting KO'd every match. Maybe it worked like Hogan getting hit with Savage's Reviving Elbow? Kawada couldn't reach his competitive zone without getting KO'd first? Or like Lawler was a slow starter, but Kawada only really begins when he's seeing double? Also, Randy Savage sells the knee better than Tosh. All wrestling has weird little fun wrestling quirks. No matter how much a promotion sells itself as legitimate.... its fake. If you pick the psychology apart at this level it all crumbles. Lawler is the best puncher in wrestling history and his punching and brawling was played up in the narrative of Memphis wrestling. Why did it take him so many direct punches to the face and people weren't KOed? Whey weren't they bleeding more often? Where his punches really just that soft? He was a manly man... surely he hit harder than a child. What about shoot style... nothing is more legit than SHOOT. If Volk Han was such a master grappler why did he lose control of people's legs after having them so deep in controlling positions. Why didn't he finish heel hooks more often? Why didn't he just do the damn move right and cripple them? Kawada got over tons of his opponents as murderers in the middle of the match and did so in a way that kept the drama and put over how dangerous the strikes are. I was being somewhat flippant about the whole of the psychology being built around concussions, but much of it is built around trying to destroy your opponent with head and neck trama. In that setting - where it often takes a lot to put someone down - it makes total sense for Kawada to take one to the dome and be able to come to by the time someone can take advantage because its usually timed where people need a tick before they can capitalize... then boom, Kawada is back. Kawada taking getting his lights dimmed a lot doesn't feel at all egregious to me in the grand scheme of wrestling.
P.S. to be clear, I am also having fun with this post. This just boils down to different tastes being fleshed out in the interpretation of a singular phenomenon within that style.... and you hating the wrestling equivalent of a butterfly landing on a puppies nose.
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