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Post by Cap on Jul 19, 2019 9:53:04 GMT -5
Kawada is just the fucking man. I love his intensity and his selling. No one sells a death blow to the head KO like he does. Personally, I find myself a little lower on some of his singles matches than some people, but he still wound up with two singles matches on my list of the top 100 of all time, so yeah he is good.
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Post by bossrock on Jul 19, 2019 16:58:22 GMT -5
When I first got into AJPW, Kobashi and Misawa immediately became my favorites. However, I always knew Kawada was one of the GOAT's and loved his matches. I was just never as enthralled with him as I was the other two and I thought he lacked the peak singles matches they had. But the more I've watched of him (especially in the post-four pillars years), the more I've really come to "appreciate" Kawada to the point where I may very well call him the best ever. Whereas Misawa could be too stoic, Kawada was terrific at conveying emotion (particularly rage). And whereas Kobashi could be too histrionic, Kawada was the master of subtlety. The 6/12/98 match is tremendous for a number of reasons, but the clash of dramatic Kobashi with the subtle yet increasingly irritated Kawada perhaps stands out the most. And while he still falls behind both Kobashi and Misawa in terms of the number of matches that made my ballot and matches I've gone the full 5 on, his resume post-four pillars holds up incredibly well. He worked a more diverse array of opponents and had a longer run of great matches (Misawa's last great year was probably 2004 whereas Kobashi was probably 2005 or 2006). And regardless of what Elliot says I still think the Hansen '93 match rules
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Post by elliott on Jul 28, 2019 20:12:40 GMT -5
The worst lariat ever thrown in a Hansen match was in that match by Kawada
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Post by microstatistics on Jul 29, 2019 1:04:34 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the fact that great leg selling has become associated with him. He was so wildly inconsistent, Kobashi was magnitudes better. He was a monster during his peak (1994-96) but there are other periods I'm not so high on.
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2019 11:47:10 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the fact that great leg selling has become associated with him. He was so wildly inconsistent, Kobashi was magnitudes better. He was a monster during his peak (1994-96) but there are other periods I'm not so high on. ^ Word.
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Post by elliott on Sept 21, 2019 0:50:01 GMT -5
I watched the two Kawada vs Taue matches from 1991 and it is such a shame that AJPW got a way from matches like that amongst the pillars. I know what everyone loved was how AJPW was so "pure" and there would always be a clean finish and all that bullshit. But we couldn't get one Misawa vs Kawada match ever where tensions boil over and then they just brawl for 14 minutes with someone getting bloodied?
Anyway, I think these are interesting matches to watch because they're (I think) the first examples of two of the pillars having legit great singles matches with each other and not needing Jumbo or Hansen to lead the way. Please correct me if there's something earlier, because I'd like to watch it. One thing I couldn't help but be struck by when watching these matches is that English speaking AJPW fans at the time (WON Readers/Letter Writers) thought Kawada was a top 10 worker in the world in 1991 and that Taue sucked. Not "Taue was ok, but not as good as the other pillars." People thought Taue was actually an actively bad wrestler and that things like tag matches would get clearly worse when Taue tagged in and better the second he tagged out. This is so fucking crazy to me. A lot of us have come to really appreciate Taue and what he could do in the ring, but I just have no idea what people were looking at when they watched stuff like the Kawada vs Taue matches. Taue is just as good, if not clearly better than Kawada in both the early 91 matches (Taue is better in them). I dunno. Its bizarre.
So I guess it got me thinking about a few things. Were the Taue vs Kawada matches the first singles matches between pillars that were great? The old jdw inspired narrative would have called Kawada a top 10 wrestler in the world no later than 1991. Do people still think this way? Was Kawada a strong best candidate in the world wrestler as early as 1991? Was he clearly better than Misawa? I think most folks here would call Kobashi the best of the pillars. Back in the day you'd always hear Kawada as the clear best. Does anyone still feel this way? If so, when did he separate himself from his peers?
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Post by tetsujin on Sept 21, 2019 5:46:53 GMT -5
I always loved the Kawada/Taue matches because they're very different from what you could expect from a singles match between Pillars. Their rivalry was one of the best at that time and the biggest reason for the famous six man tags being that good.
Kawada was the first Pillar showing bitw potential as early as 1988 with the RWTL with Tenryu. I still think Kobashi's the best pre and post peak Pillar, but Taue is a strong second at both cases.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 21, 2019 8:00:24 GMT -5
Were the Taue vs Kawada matches the first singles matches between pillars that were great? There's a great Misawa vs. Taue sprint from '91 www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME2xt5Hrqeg (also further proof that folks who said Taue sucked in '91 were objectively wrong). I need to see a bit more of the early '90s stuff, but I might actually agree Kawada was the best Pillar and possibly best in the world. The Taue interactions in those classic six-man tags really elevated them to the next level.
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Post by nintendologic on Sept 21, 2019 8:55:36 GMT -5
It wasn't just Observer subscribers who thought Taue sucked. Supposedly, wrestlers who did All Japan tours considered him one of the harder guys to get a good match out of. Also, "sucked" in this case is a relative term. Looking at the Observer awards, he never placed in the Most Overrated/Least Favorite/Worst Wrestler categories, so it's not like they viewed him as a Japanese Van Hammer. They just didn't consider him up to the All Japan standard. Regardless, I agree on a certain level that it's a shame the promotion moved away from matches like Kawada/Taue. A high-end bloody brawl just connects on a visceral level that even a hard-hitting title match can't reach. On the other hand, the Pillars likely wouldn't have developed as workers to the degree that they did if they had blood and gimmicks to fall back on. In particular, I think Taue would have been happy to get by on bloodbath matches.
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Post by elliott on Sept 21, 2019 17:30:12 GMT -5
Kane is regarded as a great wrestler by other wrestlers. So what Johnny Smith (to pull a random name out who toured in AJPW) thinks about Taue means very little to me.
On 1/24/95 - "One of the more overrated matches of the decade. Taue just wasn't any good. Of their 9 matches against each other from 6/93 to 12/95, this rates with the 12/95 Tag League Final as the least likely to hit my VCR at any point soon. I felt just like the crowd did every time Taue tagged in - "NO!?!? TOSH.... NO!!! STAY IN!!! AW FUCK!!!"" - jdw All Japan 90s Pimping Post
On 10/15/95 - "This is the 60:00 draw that is vastly better than the 1/95 60:00 draw between the two teams. Why? Taue sucked in 1/95. Taue was excellent by 10/95." -jdw All Japan 90s Pimping Post
People thought he was actively bad and hurt the matches. It wasn't a relative thing.
I honestly think is is ridiculous to say things like they wouldn't have developed as workers if they had blood and gimmicks to fall back on. Maybe Misawa wouldn't have bumped himself into decapitation if he had used blood and gimmicks instead of just relying on getting dumped on his head repeatedly because he didn't know how else to work? All of those guys careers were over before they were 50. Super Developed workers indeed.
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Post by elliott on Sept 21, 2019 17:40:02 GMT -5
I always loved the Kawada/Taue matches because they're very different from what you could expect from a singles match between Pillars. Their rivalry was one of the best at that time and the biggest reason for the famous six man tags being that good. Kawada was the first Pillar showing bitw potential as early as 1988 with the RWTL with Tenryu. I still think Kobashi's the best pre and post peak Pillar, but Taue is a strong second at both cases. The last time I watched the 88 RWTL (which was earlier this year), I wasn't blown away with Kawada in it by any means. I mean he's good, but his role is to basically get laid out and sell outside the ring. There are probably some other Footloose tags that might be better examples of young Kawada looking promising. Of course, in that era he was working completely differently from how he would later during his peak. As far as the first pillar showing potential early on, Misawa has the La Fiera match from 1984 that was really good and the 88 singles match against Jumbo is better than any Kawada singles match until....the Taue matches in 91 probably? Of course those guys got started earlier too. Misawa & Kawada debuted in 81 & 82 respectively while Kobashi got his start in 2/88 (!!) and had a match finish in the top 16 on the DVDVR 80s AJPW voting as early as July 1989. Kobashi is probably the answer for all the pillar related questions excluding "Who is the best pillar not named Kenta."
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Post by bossrock on Sept 21, 2019 18:22:40 GMT -5
Kane is regarded as a great wrestler by other wrestlers. So what Johnny Smith (to pull a random name out who toured in AJPW) thinks about Taue means very little to me. It's always fascinating how differently wrestlers view great wrestlers and matches than fans do. Kane is called one of the greatest big men ever because he was supposedly easy and safe to work with. Orton has been called one of the best if not the best wrestler of this generation just because he has really good execution and mechanics.
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Post by nintendologic on Sept 21, 2019 21:53:06 GMT -5
Kane is regarded as a great wrestler by other wrestlers. So what Johnny Smith (to pull a random name out who toured in AJPW) thinks about Taue means very little to me.
Who has actually gone on record calling Kane a great wrestler? The "wrestlers think Kane is great" argument seems to be an urban legend with hardly any basis in reality. From what I've read, most wrestlers who've worked with Kane think he's either mediocre or the total shits.
LOL @ treating the writings of a single individual as indicative of the overall consensus. If you go to Cagematch, the 1/95 match is rated significantly higher than the 10/95 one, so jdw is actually a major outlier. Even so, I guarantee you jdw would say Taue only sucked relative to AJPW and not the WWF or WCW or NJPW if you asked him today.
And everyone who worked in Puerto Rico lived long and healthy lives, right? Look, there's no safe way to do pro wrestling. One way or another, you're going to have to pay the piper. Even Nick Bockwinkel, who wrestled probably the safest style imaginable, ended up with dementia. Pretty much everyone who was a major star in the 90s ended up horribly broken down, so comparing them mainly comes down to aesthetics.
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Post by elliott on Sept 21, 2019 23:34:48 GMT -5
Not treating John's opinion as indicative of overall consensus. Just pulling out an easy to find quote from a noted AJPW fan and opinion maker from that time period using the exact words "Taue" and "sucked." Odd that you're asking for examples of wrestlers calling Kane great one second and then laughing off an example of someone thinking Taue sucked at a time when he didn't immediately after. Make up your mind. As far as Puerto Rico, Carlos Colon is 71 years old and has lived 24 years longer than Misawa and had a match as recently as 2014. He debuted in 1966. Invader I debuted in 1969 and last worked in 2014. Abdullah is as associated with PR as anyone other than Colon & Invader. Debuted in 1966. Is he still working? All these dudes debuted before the pillars & worked after they had to retire/had died. Did you want to pick a different territory or did you just want to take shots at PR knowing that I'm a big fan? Honestly my issue isn't with wrestler safety. Everyone knows wrestling isn't safe, but thanks for that lesson. I was literally just praising matches with Onita getting electrocuted yesterday. I take issue with this notion that AJPW was sooo amazing and was better than everyone else and that blood and gimmick stuff obviously would have stunted their development as workers when their approach to fake fighting literally killed the king of the style and ended everyone else's career at such young ages. I'm not saying if Misawa wrestled in barbed wire cage matches, maybe he'd be alive. Nor am I saying they should have been doing cage and ladder matches. My real point is, given how awesome those Kawada/Taue 91 matches were, its such a shame they went in the direction they did as a company and they no longer had room for a 14 minute blood match where both guys get stretchered out. That sucks! It limited the variety of matches the company produced during their peak era and limited the variety of wrestlers they could credibly use which eventually had a negative effect on business, in addition to all the injury/early retirement/death stuff. I think they would have been better for it. Misawa blading after Kawada whacked him with a chair and then Kawada working over the cut would have been amazing in 1995. The 1990 6 man where Kobashi breaks his nose and it gets worked over is one of the most memorable matches of the 90s. I would have proposed they did more stuff like that, only don't actually break the dude's nose. There's plenty of room inbetween what they were doing and Puerto Rican Death Matches. Instead they were like "Ok, we've made all undercard matches totally meaningless, we've made every nearfall in the first 20 minutes of our main events meaningless, what if we make submissions meaningless too...but we still kinda used them! But use even more nearfalls. Everyone got it? Ok GOOOOOO!" These guys having an occasional short 10 minute match where they just fake punch and chop each other instead of actually elbow and kick each other (along with everything else) for 30 minutes would have furthered their development as wrestlers and made them better all around and trained their fans to accept them doing stuff other than the longer and bigger main events they did. Anyway, so it doesn't get lost, these were the things I was wondering about from above: Were the Taue vs Kawada matches the first singles matches between pillars that were great? (Bossrock pointed to a Misawa vs Taue sprint from 91 I need to watch). The old jdw inspired narrative would have called Kawada a top 10 wrestler in the world no later than 1991. Do people still think this way? Was Kawada a strong best candidate in the world wrestler as early as 1991? Was he clearly better than Misawa? I think most folks here would call Kobashi the best of the pillars. Back in the day you'd always hear Kawada as the clear best. Does anyone still feel this way? If so, when did he separate himself from his peers?
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Post by nintendologic on Sept 22, 2019 20:07:27 GMT -5
I don't want to get too bogged down in a side discussion about jdw and Kane, so let's move on from that.
As far as Puerto Rico, Carlos Colon is 71 years old and has lived 24 years longer than Misawa and had a match as recently as 2014. He debuted in 1966. Invader I debuted in 1969 and last worked in 2014. Abdullah is as associated with PR as anyone other than Colon & Invader. Debuted in 1966. Is he still working? All these dudes debuted before the pillars & worked after they had to retire/had died. Did you want to pick a different territory or did you just want to take shots at PR knowing that I'm a big fan?
I took a quick glance at the DVDVR Puerto Rico match list and counted seven dead wrestlers on the first disc alone. And the ones who are still around aren't exactly the picture of health (Abdullah has hepatitis, for example). I'll admit that I named PR partially to rib you, but I mainly wanted to use it as a metonym for garbage/deathmatch wrestling in general. If one were to do a serious comparison of body counts and quality of life, there's no way that side of the ledger would come out ahead.
Honestly my issue isn't with wrestler safety. Everyone knows wrestling isn't safe, but thanks for that lesson. I was literally just praising matches with Onita getting electrocuted yesterday. I take issue with this notion that AJPW was sooo amazing and was better than everyone else and that blood and gimmick stuff obviously would have stunted their development as workers when their approach to fake fighting literally killed the king of the style and ended everyone else's career at such young ages.
If that's your stance, I'm afraid we're at an impasse because King's Road is the greatest shit ever in my book and you'll never convince me otherwise. If matches like Kawada/Taue had to be sacrificed to get to 6/3/94, that's a trade I'll make any day of the week.
I'm not saying if Misawa wrestled in barbed wire cage matches, maybe he'd be alive. Nor am I saying they should have been doing cage and ladder matches. My real point is, given how awesome those Kawada/Taue 91 matches were, its such a shame they went in the direction they did as a company and they no longer had room for a 14 minute blood match where both guys get stretchered out. That sucks! It limited the variety of matches the company produced during their peak era and limited the variety of wrestlers they could credibly use which eventually had a negative effect on business, in addition to all the injury/early retirement/death stuff. I think they would have been better for it.
Possibly, but I think it's at least as likely that they would have taken the blood and guts to the extreme if given the opportunity given how far they went with stiffness and head drops. As with many things in wrestling, no use is better than overuse even if sparing use is best of all.
Misawa blading after Kawada whacked him with a chair and then Kawada working over the cut would have been amazing in 1995. The 1990 6 man where Kobashi breaks his nose and it gets worked over is one of the most memorable matches of the 90s. I would have proposed they did more stuff like that, only don't actually break the dude's nose. There's plenty of room inbetween what they were doing and Puerto Rican Death Matches. Instead they were like "Ok, we've made all undercard matches totally meaningless, we've made every nearfall in the first 20 minutes of our main events meaningless, what if we make submissions meaningless too...but we still kinda used them! But use even more nearfalls. Everyone got it? Ok GOOOOOO!"
It was mainly their TV situation that caused the undercard to be devalued. And they did become more open-minded about things like submissions and match times after Misawa got the book. The 10/30/99 Misawa/Vader Triple Crown match is a prime example. It's a 12-minute bombfest and the crowd is super-hot virtually the entire time.
These guys having an occasional short 10 minute match where they just fake punch and chop each other instead of actually elbow and kick each other (along with everything else) for 30 minutes would have furthered their development as wrestlers and made them better all around and trained their fans to accept them doing stuff other than the longer and bigger main events they did.
This presumes that their fans would have just passively accepted whatever the wrestlers and promoters served up to them. That might have worked in the territory era when the NWA cartel artificially limited consumer choice, but it wouldn't fly in Japan in the 1990s. Also, you have to remember that pro wrestling in Japan had always been presented as a serious legitimate sport. Doing fake punches and chops while the guys in New Japan and the UWF were beating the shit out of each other for real would have made the product look blatantly phony and probably killed their business.
Anyway, so it doesn't get lost, these were the things I was wondering about from above:
Were the Taue vs Kawada matches the first singles matches between pillars that were great?
I'd say so, but I think it was more a case of them catching lightning in a bottle than a reflection of how advanced they were as workers at that point. They wrestled each other a bunch of times afterward, and none of their other singles matches are nearly as good. Other than that, the best pre-1994 pillar vs. pillar singles match is probably the 1993 Misawa/Taue Triple Crown match.
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