|
|
Post by Cap on Jul 19, 2019 10:01:16 GMT -5
I think certain corners of the internet sort of undersell Hart. I would argue that he is one of the most influential forces in the modern style of wrestling, the work rate focus, especially as that has become more a part of the WWE. I don't think he will ever wind up with more than one match on my list, but he produced a lot of great wrestling and helped a lot of really limited wrestlers excel.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Jul 28, 2019 20:16:25 GMT -5
I think certain corners of the internet sort of undersell Hart. I would argue that he is one of the most influential forces in the modern style of wrestling, the work rate focus, especially as that has become more a part of the WWE. I don't think he will ever wind up with more than one match on my list, but he produced a lot of great wrestling and helped a lot of really limited wrestlers excel. I think Randy Savage is really underrated in this regard as he was the perfect mixture of workrate/wrestling quality and theatricality. Do people think Bret's in ring work was better as a face or a heel? |
|
|
|
Post by microstatistics on Jul 29, 2019 0:46:20 GMT -5
That's a difficult question but a good one. Honestly don't have an answer since he had great matches as both. IMO, Bret's collection of great matches is up there with the very best wrestlers from US/Japan/Mexico.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Jul 29, 2019 1:05:37 GMT -5
I disagree that Bret's work truly stands out as remarkable on a worldwide context. A few matches for sure. But he doesn't have the depth that the all timers do. I think he probably has less all timers than Tamura even though he worked more matches 6 months than Tamura did in his career.
|
|
|
|
Post by bossrock on Jul 29, 2019 16:17:47 GMT -5
Bret to me is a guy who's classics are well-established and great, but I'm curious as to how much volume he truly has. And apart from the Austin Mania match, none of his other high-regarded matches (Austin Survivor Series, 1-2-3 Kid, Diesel Survivor Series, Canadian Stampede tag, Owen Mania 10) ever rose above the level of "really good to great" for me. So if there are any other truly great matches I may be missing, would love to hear them.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Jul 29, 2019 16:44:31 GMT -5
I think certain corners of the internet sort of undersell Hart. I would argue that he is one of the most influential forces in the modern style of wrestling, the work rate focus, especially as that has become more a part of the WWE. I don't think he will ever wind up with more than one match on my list, but he produced a lot of great wrestling and helped a lot of really limited wrestlers excel. I think Randy Savage is really underrated in this regard as he was the perfect mixture of workrate/wrestling quality and theatricality. Do people think Bret's in ring work was better as a face or a heel? I agree 100% on Savage. If I were submitting a GWE ballot Savage is likely in the top 10 and would get some very serious consideration for #1 Spot. His combination of skills and ability to appeal to such a huge range of fans is untouchable.
I think Hart was better as a heel. His personality was more interesting and I think it added a layer to his in ring work that really made him more compelling. I would sort of liken him a bit to Daniel Bryan in this way. I think Bryan is a much better wrestler on the whole, but they are similar in that their technical styles actually work better when they add a little teeth in the form of some heelin. Bryan's face run towards the title might be his most memorable, but I have always preferred his heel or tweener runs in the indies and in the E. Same ultimately goes for Hart.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 30, 2019 5:30:37 GMT -5
Did a comprehensive list of Bret recommendations. Bret's "Great matches" are as well known as anybody's. We have the vast majority of his career on tape in any setting you could ask for and many of us literally grew up watching him. The knocks are as well known as the great matches: He mailed it on house shows, doesn't really have the depth of great matches of other guys considered all timers, & doesn't have the hidden gems.
I tried to dig deep for Bret and come up with as much stuff as I could. I also give him every benefit of the doubt and included matches that I don't think are anywhere close to great (like the first Shawn PPV match). I know there's a Hart's vs Islanders match I need to see still. Otherwise, here ya go:
Bret Hart vs Dynamite Kid (WWF 9/14/85)
The Hart Foundation vs British Bulldogs (WWF 9/23/85)
Bret Hart vs Ricky Steamboat (WWF Boston Garden 3/8/86)
Bret Hart vs Randy Savage (WWF SNME 11/11/87)
The Hart Foundation vs Demolition (WWF SummerSlam 8/24/88)
Bret Hart vs Ted Dibiase (WWF 3/8/89)
Hart Foundation vs Brainbusters (WWF SummerSlam 8/28/89)
Bret Hart vs Mr Perfect (WWF 10/2/89)
Hart Foundation vs Demolition (WWF SummerSlam 8/27/90)
Hart Foundation vs The Nasty Boys (WWF WrestleMania VII 3/24/91)
Bret Hart vs Mr Perfect (WWF SummerSlam 8/26/91)
Bret Hart vs Ric Flair (WWF Invasion 11/11/91)
Bret Hart vs Roddy Piper (WWF Wrestlemania VIII 04/05/92)
Bret Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF Summerslam 08/29/92)
Bret Hart vs Ric Flair (WWF Smack Em Whack Em 10/12/92)
Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels (WWF Survivor Series 11/25/92)
Bret Hart vs Ric Flair (WWF Worcester, MA 12/27/92)
Bret Hart vs Ric Flair (Iron Man Match WWF Boston, MA 1/9/93)
Bret Hart vs Razor Ramon (WWF Royal Rumble 1/24/93)
Bret Hart vs Bam Bam Bigelow (WWF Barcelona 4/24/93)
Bret Hart vs Bam Bam Bigelow (WWF King of the Ring 6/13/93)
Bret Hart vs Mr Perfect WWF King of the Ring 6/13/93)
Bret Hart vs Yokozuna (WWF MSG 8/13/93)
Bret Hart vs Yokozuna (Cage Match WWF 12/15/93)
Bret Hart & Owen Hart vs The Steiner Brothers (WWF WrestleFest 1/11/94)
Bret Hart & Owen Hart vs The Quebecers (WWF Royal Rumble 1/22/94)
Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (WWF WrestleMania X 3/20/94)
Bret Hart vs 123 Kid (WWF Monday Night RAW 7/11/94)
Bret Hart vs Bob Backlund (WWF Superstars 7/30/94)
Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (Iron Man Match WWF Nassau Coliseum 7/9/94)
Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (Cage Match WWF SummerSlam 8/29/94)
Bret Hart vs Bob Backlund (WWF Survivor Series 11/23/94)
Bret Hart vs Diesel (WWF Royal Rumble 1/22/95)
Bret Hart & Davey Boy Smith vs Owen Hart & Bob Backlund (WWF Action Zone 2/26/95)
Bret Hart vs Hakushi (WWF In Your House 5/14/95)
Bret Hart vs Hakkushi (WWF Monday Night RAW 7/24/94)
Bret Hart vs Jean Pierre Lafitte (WWF In Your House III 9/24/95)
Bret Hart vs Diesel (WWF Survivor Series 11/19/95)
Bret Hart vs Davey Boy Smith (WWF In Your House 12/17/95)
Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels (WWF Wrestlemania XII (03/31/96)
Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF South Africa 9/14/96)
Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF Survivor Series 11/17/96)
Bret Hart vs Steve Austin vs Vader vs Undertaker (WWF IYH 13: Final Four 2/16/97)
Bret Hart vs Sid (WWF Monday Night RAW 02/17/97)
Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF Wrestlemania XIII 03/23/97)
Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF Revenge of the Taker 04/20/97)
Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Davey Boy Smith, Jim Neidhart & Brian Pillman vs Steve Austin, Goldust, Ken Shamrock & Legion of Doom (WWF Canadian Stampede 07/06/97)
Bret Hart vs Terry Funk (WrestleFest 9/11/97)
Bret Hart vs The Undertaker (WWF One Night Only 09/20/97)
Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels (WWF Survivor Series 11/09/97)
Bret Hart vs Ric Flair (WCW Souled Out 1/24/98)
Bret Hart vs Randy Savage (WCW Slambore 5/17/98(
Bret Hart vs Lex Luger (WCW Monday Nitro 08/10/98)
Bret Hart vs Diamond Dallas Page (WCW Monday Nitro 10/26/98)
Bret Hart vs Booker T (WCW Monday Nitro 02/22/99)
Bret Hart vs Chris Benoit (WCW Monday Nitro 10/04/99)
|
|
|
|
Post by nintendologic on Aug 30, 2019 11:43:35 GMT -5
No Bret vs. Tom Magee? For shame.
But seriously, I would agree that Bret's legacy is mainly defined by his greatest hits. If you think it's all-time great stuff, you'll probably enjoy just about anything he does. If you don't, his deep cuts won't change your mind. With that said, here are a few additional recommendations.
Bret vs. Austin in South Africa (9/14/96) and at Revenge of the Taker are both worth checking out. The former is more or less a dry run for their Survivor Series match. The latter is their only match where Bret is a full-blown heel and Austin is a full-blown face (other than the street fight on Raw, but that was more of an angle than a match). All things considered, Bret/Austin has to be the greatest short (< 1 year) feud of all time.
Bret vs. Bigelow in Barcelona (4/24/93) is at least as good as their KOTR match.
Matt D is a big advocate of Hart Foundation vs. Demolition at Summerslam 1988. I think that's nuts, but it is better than their 1990 match. Hart Foundation vs. Nasty Boys at WM7 smokes both of them.
Bret vs. Randy Savage at Slamboree is probably Bret's second-best WCW match. At the very least, it's his second-best individual performance in WCW.
Bret's pre-WWF career is nothing to write home about, although he does have a neat Ricky Morton/Sonny King-esque studio match with Buzz Sawyer in GCW in 1979. Then again, we'd have a better sense of how he developed as a worker if his Stampede matches weren't clipped to hell. Thanks a lot, Ed Whalen.
|
|
|
|
Post by fxnj on Aug 30, 2019 14:54:43 GMT -5
I feel like you guys are really sleeping on Bret's 80s work. Been too long since I went through them to remember specific matches, but pretty much anything vs. the Killer Bees, Rougeau Brothers, and Rockers (besides the rope break match) was a winner. I think the Copps Coliseum Rockers match was the best of the bunch, but that doesn't look to be online. I also remember the Bulldogs rivalry being a pretty lengthy series that spawned numerous great matches besides the one that was mentioned, and which ended up being a big factor in pushing the company towards a faster paced tag-team style. Before his big singles run had even started, Bret had already established himself as one of the best workhorses and a huge driving force behind the company's golden age of tag team wrestling. Here's a random match I just found on Youtube. Not a big revelation, but I think it's a good example of what I was talking with the Hart Foundation being regarded as such an influential tag team in that it's them in there with two guys who weren't exactly known as sprint workers and forcing them to push the pace. www.youtube.com/watch?v=62T8Hn1aL54 |
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 30, 2019 16:02:11 GMT -5
I haven't had the Network since WWE made the deal with Saudi Arabia, so I haven't kept up with any of the hidden gems stuff and forgot that finally came out. How was it? Does it belong on the list? I actually was surprised by the amount of "deep cuts" he has. Its not like a Tenryu level, but I didn't expect to get to 50 matches if I'm being honest and even giving him a lot of benefit of the doubt on the list, there's still a few things I missed like you & fxnj pointed out. I think the non-Mania Yoko matches are a real feather in his cap. I also think the Backlund feud is a great 3rd tier-ish level feud. Most folks have really come around on Yoko & Backlund over the years though. Anyway. I agree with your general point here, I just did want to highlight the Yoko & Backlund feuds. I have NO idea what happened here. I could have sworn I included both of those matches. That's so weird because I've always especially really liked the Revenge of the Taker match. Good catch as usual.  Edit: Revenge of Taker was already on there. I was having a real glitch in the Matrix moment with that one. Double Edit: But I DID miss the Final Four match with Bret/Austin/Vader/Taker which is a match I love. I couldn't remember which SummerSlam match it was I liked the most so I went with the longer one. I'll add 1988 & Nasty Boys match which I've always felt was more a personal favorite match and didn't realize it was one other people actually liked I've never cared for the Buzz Sawyer match as anything more than "neat because its Bret & Buzz." I remember how snowy the video was when I first saw it more than anything about the match. The little bit of stuff from the 80s NJ Junior division is really bad. But I do still wish we had a real look at Stampede. Maybe more so for Dynamite, Bad News & Jos LeDuc than Bret. But still. I agree with the sentiment. |
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 30, 2019 16:13:59 GMT -5
I feel like you guys are really sleeping on Bret's 80s work. Been too long since I went through them to remember specific matches, but pretty much anything vs. the Killer Bees, Rougeau Brothers, and Rockers (besides the rope break match) was a winner. I think the Copps Coliseum Rockers match was the best of the bunch, but that doesn't look to be online. I also remember the Bulldogs rivalry being a pretty lengthy series that spawned numerous great matches besides the one that was mentioned, and which ended up being a big factor in pushing the company towards a faster paced tag-team style. Before his big singles run had even started, Bret had already established himself as one of the best workhorses and a huge driving force behind the company's golden age of tag team wrestling. Here's a random match I just found on Youtube. Not a big revelation, but I think it's a good example of what I was talking with the Hart Foundation being regarded as such an influential tag team in that it's them in there with two guys who weren't exactly known as sprint workers and forcing them to push the pace. www.youtube.com/watch?v=62T8Hn1aL54I think the Hart Foundation are perfectly fine, I just don't think they're particularly great outside of the context of mid-late 80s WWF. Pick the best Hart Foundation match and compare it to the worst Choshu/Yatsu vs Jumbo/Tenryu or Crush Gals vs Jumping Bomb Angels. We remember them more fondly because Bret Hart became Bret Hart. |
|
|
|
Bret Hart
Aug 30, 2019 18:17:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by KB8 on Aug 30, 2019 18:17:59 GMT -5
I think the Hart Foundation are alright, but I watched a ridiculous amount of 80s WWF tag wrestling a few years ago and that Bulldogs series didn't do anything for me. There were at least a couple of their matches that I remembered liking a ton, but they all felt pretty average (though certainly not bad) on a rewatch. My favourite Hart Foundation tag is probably the Islanders match from Maple Leaf Gardens and I mostly dug that so much for Tama. I probably like Bret's singles stuff during the 80s more than I do his tag stuff. I mean, that Steamboat match from the Boston Garden is great.
Bret made my top 100 during the GWE and he'd make it again today, but I've pretty much closed the book on him and everything sort of feels like treading old ground at this point. It's not a knock on Bret and if anything it's probably a little unfair to him. I've just seen all the hits and the deep cuts and I don't think any stone is left unturned. Other than the Magee match anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kadaveri on Aug 31, 2019 11:34:33 GMT -5
The Tom McGee match isn't a great match. It's worth watching to better understand Bret as he manages to get a 3 Star match out of one of the worst wrestlers the WWF ever signed.
|
|
|
|
Post by nintendologic on Aug 31, 2019 17:43:33 GMT -5
If you've seen any of Magee's other matches, you know how much of a stiff he was. He was terrible at literally everything except armdrags and backflips. It's a testament to Bret's ring generalship that he was able to construct a very solid match around the two things Magee did well. On a somewhat related note, Bret deserves a ton of credit for being basically the only wrestler in history to significantly improve as a worker after joining the WWF. If you watch him in New Japan and World of Sport, there's nothing that makes you think he's a future legend.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Sept 1, 2019 4:22:26 GMT -5
If you've seen any of Magee's other matches, you know how much of a stiff he was. He was terrible at literally everything except armdrags and backflips. It's a testament to Bret's ring generalship that he was able to construct a very solid match around the two things Magee did well. On a somewhat related note, Bret deserves a ton of credit for being basically the only wrestler in history to significantly improve as a worker after joining the WWF. If you watch him in New Japan and World of Sport, there's nothing that makes you think he's a future legend.Agreed with this. Its pretty amazing. |
|
