|
Post by elliott on Jul 29, 2019 0:52:53 GMT -5
Randy Savage finished in the top 20 during the GWE poll and everyone recognizes he's a great wrestler but I still think he's underrated. He objectively doesn't have the depth and variety of great matches as the guys I consider #1 candidates, but he has something special that when I watch him work I often think to myself "Am I just a contrarian asshole saying someone other than Randy Savage is the GOAT?" I'm not arguing that Randy is the greatest ever, but there's something about him that makes me think the whole is even greater than the sum of the parts but those parts are unbelievable.
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Jul 29, 2019 16:49:58 GMT -5
I mentioned this in the Hart thread that I am in agreement on Savage. He is - to me - neck and neck with Flair in the best larger than life main eventers in America. The era of that type of main eventer maybe ended around the early 2000s, but it is still a type that exists in the WWE. In that, I really mean guys whos primary appeal or primary reason for their success is that they are just massive personalities and they have presence. Some of them can also work of course, but Flair and Savage are at the top in terms of being both huge wrestling personalities and guys that can work the pants off of anyone. (Its not a perfect category, but it works in my dork-brain) Everyone sees Flair as a top guy (see the GWE result). Savage is undersold in this regard.
Side note. I just bought some randy savage socks and they are definitely my favorite socks now.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 30, 2019 17:36:37 GMT -5
Top 5 US based wrestler ever?
|
|
|
Post by KB8 on Aug 30, 2019 18:23:02 GMT -5
I wouldn't quite go top 5, but I'd probably have him top 10 (the Hansen/Funk/Lawler/Rose/Bockwinkel quintet is pretty unfuckwithable as a top 5 for me at this point).
If it's purely a favourites list then yes, top 5.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 30, 2019 19:46:48 GMT -5
"US Based" meaning Hansen's & Funk's Japanese stuff wouldn't count.
|
|
|
Post by KB8 on Aug 31, 2019 5:06:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I thought you probably meant that after I posted.
Hansen certainly drops out of top 5 contention at that point. I'm not convinced it drops Funk out of there, but we'll say it does and that'd leave two spots and Savage has about as good a case as anybody for filling one of them. Between Savage, Flair, Eddie, Rey...man, that's tough.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 31, 2019 5:27:03 GMT -5
I would put Randy ahead of Guerrero. Eddie's best 18 month stretch might be better, but I would take Randy's best 10 years over Eddie's.
I'd put Savage over Rey. Of course Rey has more good/very good/great matches than probably anyone in history and that means something. But I do think Randy's peak is better. Peak vs Longevity is always a conversation, but when someone is as good as Randy was from say 84-92 that's when Peak is going to overtake any sort of longevity advantage.
A comparison of Savage vs Funk's US work would be interesting because so much of it overlaps in terms of time period, promotions & best opponents. They both had great stuff in Memphis with Lawler, WWF with Hogan, & WCW with Flair. They always sort of circled each other but never ended up in the same ring and that's a fucking tragedy.
|
|
|
Post by KB8 on Aug 31, 2019 5:42:09 GMT -5
I think that's fair on the Savage/Eddie comparison but I find it absolutely impossible to be impartial on Eddie and I won't even pretend otherwise.
Savage/Rey is hard as hell and I actually had them right next to each other (Rey one spot ahead) when I took part in a top 25 US wrestlers ever poll a few years back.
Yeah, Savage v Funk feels like one of the absolute top tier dream matches we never got. Imagine they got do it in Puerto Rico? Holy fuck. Based on the US work alone I'd still go Funk, I think. I love at least one Savage v Flair match (Wrestlemania 8) and as a Flair opponent I love Savage, because he'd always do wacky and unexpected shit that clearly took Flair out of his comfort zone and it made the matches themselves feel unpredictable. But the two big Flair/Funk matches in '89 are out of this world and top 30 contenders (at worst) for my ballot next year. Funk obviously has the longevity because he's Funk, but I think I prefer ECW Funk on the whole to WCW Savage. Peak v peak, at least in terms of what they did in the US is obviously hard because both guys had so much stuff I love. Without thinking too much about it I'd probably lean Funk because the Puerto Rico run is so incredibly fun and awesome that I can't help but let it sway me.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Sept 1, 2019 4:47:22 GMT -5
The Savage/Flair GAB 95 match is an awesome match and as good as their Mania match. Of course they aren't on the level of the Funk/Flair matches from 89, but they are definitely great matches.
For some reason I'm struggling to pick between Savage & US Funk which is weird because they had a lot of overlap in terms of promotions, opponents etc. Funk simply doesn't have the consecutive stretch from say 84-92 that Savage does which makes it a little trickier in my head.
Funk's best US stuff is against Lawler, Flair, Eddie Gilbert, Harley, Bob Orton Jr, Steamboat, Sabu, Foley, Hogan, Windham, Martel, Bret Hart. Savage's best stuff is against Lawler, Flair, Steamboat, Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Tito Santana, Bret Hart, Austin Idol, RnR Express, Dibiase, DDP, Rodman.
Outside of the Flair feud, I think Savage has better feuds and rivalries. Savage vs Lawler, Steamboat, Warrior & Tito are all some of the best US feuds of that time period. I love the Hogan/Funk matches, but Savage was probably Hogan's career opponent. I'm not as big on the Dibiase feud as some, but it had plenty of good-very good matches. Savage also spent a lot of time feuding with Jake Roberts & Dusty. To be fair I haven't watched those matches in forever, but those guys aren't exactly considered super workers.
If someone wants to say Funk's feud with Lawler is better than Savage's based on the strength of their two matches, I wouldn't argue it. But Savage & Lawler had more history and their primary feud lasted longer. Of course Lawler vs Funk continued for decades on the indy circuit. But the primary Lawler vs Savage run was awesome.
Funk has better one off matches. vs Harley, Steamboat, Orton Jr, Windham & Martel is more impressive than Savage's. But Funk is one of best one off wrestlers ever. That's kinda Funk's thing. Plus Savage's long runs in WWF & WCW meant he was more inclined to be working long term feuds than the world traveling Funk.
Terry Funk's absolute best stuff is better. The Harley match & the pair of matches against Lawler & Flair. But few wrestlers had matches as great with a talent gap as wide as Savage/Warrior.
Savage also has the larger than life personality that make his small & insignificant matches feel more important.
I dunno. I'm still not sure. Its close.
Also worth pointing out I think Terry is the clear GOAT when you look at his whole career and both guys are two of my 5 favorite wrestlers ever. So this is hard.
|
|
|
Post by bossrock on Sept 6, 2019 17:46:58 GMT -5
Top 5 US based wrestler ever? I would for sure say Bryan, Mysterio, and Flair. I would still consider Funk as I actually hold his U.S. stuff higher than his Japan work. And while A.J.'s NJPW run was terrific that was only about 18 months of a career that's already had years of great stuff.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 2:36:16 GMT -5
Was Savage one of the guys rumored to jump to WCW in 1988 or 89 like Harts, Rockers, Dibiase, Brainbusters, Piper etc?
|
|
|
Post by kas on Mar 28, 2020 22:16:14 GMT -5
How big of a draw was he at his peak? I've seen people say if he was given the belt for as long as Hogan that he'd have been at least on par in drawing power but I find that kind of hard to believe
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Mar 28, 2020 23:47:23 GMT -5
He was a major star and mainstream name. At his absolute peak he's probably the second biggest star in wrestling. But even when he won the title he was positioned as secondary to Hogan. It was less of an Austin/Rock situation and more like Michael Jordan (Hogan) and Charles Barkley (Savage).
Hard to say Savage would have drawn as well. I seem to recall non-Hogan headlined shows in the era drew worse than Hogan shows. Savage's drawing plusses are more as an opponent for Hogan and later Flair in WCW than as someone carrying a promotion as the top star.
|
|
|
Post by workedshoot on May 27, 2020 13:31:05 GMT -5
Well, I've always had an emotional connection to him since I first saw him in 1985. When I was a kid I bought a VCR tape with his Memphis stuff and was amazed. So he was always a good worker since the 1970s. And much still hasn't made tape.
He feels like a time traveler. I think he liked to be challenged with another creative genius to come up with a good match. I believe Prime Savage could have gotten over in any era and adapt to any style. His scripting pissed off the vets. I could imagine guys like Steele and Race just ignoring it.
Most discussions downgrade his WCW run. So I'm glad this forum pimps GAB95. Be on the lookout for more hidden gems. That DDP match was good too.
To be quite honest, I think he lost the It Factor/Star Power (tm) when he started to wear the full body outfit/hats. The Retirement Match was an exception to the rule. Obviously he was a great hand and valuable but IMHO I would have rather seen him face Flair in the 1980s than in the 1990s. And Savage vs Dusty even as late as 1987 would have been much better than what happened in 1990. Randy started to lose his physique when everyone was getting bigger, sold too much, and didn't seem as fast as the young talent coming in. Plus his booking wasn't always the best due to so many cooks in the kitchen. Again, just an impression, not making a thesis to debate.
His number of matches (3000+) show longevity and he really was always in the mix on top wherever he was.
I too have read conflicting things about his drawing power- that he was a legit draw and his championship run was profitable, had great buyrates and TV ratings, yet he was less than Hulk and there no was chance of ever replacing him. But then again, no one did until the Attitude Era.
In terms of U.S. GOAT from the last GWE, he was ranked 12th (obviously it's up to you guys to ignore or include Japanese runs):
Flair Funk Hansen Bryan Rey Lawler Eddie Vader Steamboat Bockwinkel Hart Savage
|
|