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Post by elliott on Dec 3, 2017 17:17:28 GMT -5
Kiyoshi Tamura vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (RINGS – 6/27/1998)
Top 5 Contender for me and almost certainly my highest ranked shoot style match. 30 minute draws in shoot style are difficult to pull off, but these are two of the best shoot style wrestlers ever and have an absolutely classic match. Everyone knows about Tamura vs Volk Han, but Tsuyoshi Kohsaka matched up perfectly with Tamura as well. The technique, stamina and athletic ability required to have a match like this makes this probably the most athletically impressive match I’ve ever seen.
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Post by fxnj on Jan 5, 2018 22:52:33 GMT -5
Seconded. Was blown away by this when I had first seen it many years ago with little knowledge about grappling, and I was even more blown away when I watched it a week ago with some grappling experience behind me. Forgetting the techniques, it's some insane conditioning displayed by both guys in going at it on the mat like they do in the first 13 minutes and then going to war with strikes for rest of the match. Incredible drama down the stretch that just arises naturally from the skill and determination displayed by both guys and without falling into the UWFi trap of making things all about the points. Shoot-style was conceived as a way of dialing things back from the theatrics and just letting the athletic ability of the participants speak for itself, and this is the pinnacle of that. Just an incredible match that probably won't rank as high as it should because some people are awful and don't get shoot-style. Not my writing, but here's a pretty amazing breakdown of all the techniques in this match from a judo perspective tkscissors.blogspot.ca/2016/10/kiyoshi-tamura-vs-tsuyoshi-kohsaka_30.htmltkscissors.blogspot.com/2017/05/rings-62798-fighting-integration-4th.html (clif notes version) |
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Post by childs on Jan 9, 2018 14:43:53 GMT -5
Straight-up classic of the genre. As with many of the best Tamura matches, it stood out simply as a remarkable display of stamina. But of course it went well beyond that, with stiffness and technique to match. Can't imagine it slipping out of my top 100.
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Post by jetlag on Oct 2, 2018 15:04:49 GMT -5
30 minutes of slick polished shootstyle. You could sit back and nit pick around this match, but I think it's safe to say that the whole thing was a success. Tamura came across as a highly methodical, dominanting force, mostly being in a controlling position or preventing Kohsaka from taking a dominant position himself, including defending against all of his takedowns. This lead to Kohsaka fighting from underneath but repeatedly getting the better of him, even while not always forcing a rope break. Kohsaka going 2-0 in points feels significant similiar to a soccer match where the ball is constantly in one team's playing field only for them to break through a handful of times and score. The matwork itself was slow paced but they kept the swank moves coming to keep you interested and the struggle felt significant. Then Tamura knocks Kohsaka over in one of the greatest near KO's ever (due to being extremely well sold) and it feels like the match can end anytime now. It all works really well and despite Tamura feeling invincible you realize Kohsaka maybe better at the mat game and able to beat him in such a way. It is not easy to tell such a story while bringing the action and working such a tricky style in a match stretched to titanic proportions but they did a wonderful job. Finally, here's a Dean Rasmussen quote which always comes to my mind when thinking about matches like this:
In case there are those of you who don't remember scientific wrestling- it was American mat wrestling that Nelson Royal and Danny Hodge did when they wrestled guys who were also faces. It was really interesting and it was ALWAYS a time limit draw and everybody shakes hands at the end and the announcers talk about what a joy it was to watch and how it was what wrestling should be, meanwhile, you're hoping BlackJack Mulligan and Wahoo are gonna kick the shit out of each other pretty soon.
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Post by shodate on Jan 16, 2019 20:46:56 GMT -5
Fourth.Best matwork ever. Seriously the way they had such an athelically imprassive match with all the stamina required and conditing was all time great but the real meat was in the struggle that they were able to incoraprated with all the athleciness most of this matwork with all the techinques used which was greatly written by tkscissors they will actually work ina real fight even if they are never used much. The skill they used to try and beat each other in a mental chess game was fucking awesome withthem using their skill to espace out of and apply holds and get out of them quckily with a lot of struggle thats what makes this great in lucha matwork you have the exbhition feeling with them softly appling holds not much struggle or it looking violent it looks tame and all the flashiness puts me off with them going hold in hold out they use good grapple techinque but never got out of gate with trying to win in this urgent manner it also has the hold in hold out stuff and more like a match having cool spots not great matwork. But here they had all the cool spots and athetlic stuff with them being urgent and the matwork looking violent the techinque and chess game to get out of holds as well as the skill of execution the conditiong and cardio to pull this off. On top of that they had urgency and sitting deeply into holds with ripping apart violence and a ton struggle so fastly and cool memsarzing spots that whole match have a great logic. with the holds looking cool but working for real if you have the techinque skill and being realistic. The ko was sudden violence with like a real fight both guys being urgent and tamura catching kohaska.better grappling than any real fight ever so best real fight ever? also the strikes were brutal with perfect execution. This type of matwork is more realistic than any of the 80s nwa stuff cause it was all with urgency struggle trying to win all the time countering superior techinque and skill used the cardio the cool amazing counters tht work with skill of execution being good and the realism being great and realistic strikes matwork were the cherry on top on all that the great conditiong cant be praised more. Tk scissors did a better job than anyone did or could with breaking down the techinques and the skill behind them and why they work in real grappling. Some of Best grappling in history including mma which this was better than fucking violent perfect executed strikes an exicting shocking violent ko finish. Better than any lucha grapple ever. Best fight of all time up there definity. Top 5 contender and 98 percent all time RINGS classic.in case of the story and character work kohsaka grew more and more confidence and realized he mas maybe better at the ground and tamura was feeling unbeatable with superior striking and his pride and determation escalated well too cant praise this enough.also real fights dont sid in holds they do struggle all the time and look for counter with grapping at holds which was present here. Cant do this match justice with a review its a match were cool details are yet to discover and there still learning. best match ever ? Definity up there 5 stars.
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Post by superstarsleeze on Mar 22, 2019 21:20:01 GMT -5
Kiyoshi Tamura vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka - RINGS 6/27/98
Well they are breaking the RINGS formula here. Usually, it is stand-up->takedown->grapple->rope break->repeat, but the first twelve minutes are all grappling with no rope breaks. Tamura decides to reset by standing. It is amazing twelve minutes. The body positioning, movement and struggle are on full display here. Kohsaka looked great, more offensive minded. He was putting his body in weird positions to be successful. He almost got Tamura twice once with a headscissors and the other a toehold. The toehold looked devastating. Kohsaka was flipping out of full mounts into Boston Crab and Cross-Armbreaker attempts so explosively. Tamura did get a triangle choke from a full mount in a way I have never seen. Like I said it was Tamura who decided to reset and if I was judging I would have given Kohsaka that 12-minute round. The fight gets really good. They do a little stand up and Tamura catches a kick. Great takedown by Tamura. Very immediate and the heel hook he has looks sunk in. Kohsaka gets figure-4 using his arms on Tamura's legs that forces Tamura to use the ropes and that is the first rope break. From 12 minutes of grappling to that explosive exchange on that mat. I like the shifting gear. Tamura as usual when he gets shown up comes out swinging in the stand up. Really good shit. Kohsaka tries to quell this fast break by going for a takedown but Tamura easily spins out and gets behind Koshaka quashing the takedown attempt. This is definitely high end RINGS so far.
Tamura is controlling the stand up. Showing himself to be more aggressive, hitting harder and landing more shots. This is forcing bad takedown attempts by Kohsaka and Tamura is controlling the grappling. Interesting that three times, Tamura starts on top during the grappling, he is left scrambling for the ropes. I mentioned one time in the previous paragraph. In addition, he loses control to a heel hook and a top wristlock (transitioned into a cross-armbreaker). It seems very un-Tamura like. Each time, he comes out firing. There is one exception. In between, the second and third ropebreak he does finish a grappling session out. I thought he was going for a neck crank headscissors, but he explosively switches gears to a cross-armbreaker. Watch how Kohsaka immediately bridges. This alleviates some pressure and gives him a chance to get to his belly and make the ropes. Great Kohsaka defensive match. Defensive clinic. Down 3-1, Tamura just light his ass up. You could tell he was not going to relent with these vicious strikes until Kohsaka went down meaning it is now 3-3. Love that aggression and mean streak. Tamura gets loose again. He takes Kohsaka down into a deep, deep side choke, really cranking, but cant finish and it is Kohsaka that finds a way to apply a rear naked choke. They are too close to the ropes so it doesnt count, but still Tamura is just not finishing besides that excellent stand up exchange where he would not be denied.
From here on out, they really "sell" exhaustion well (who know they might have been shoot blowed up because this is a very taxing cardio style). Tamura falls on his ass during the next stand up and Kohsaka collapsing on a kick to the shin. Tamura gets a quick rope break by going for a choke. Kohsaka has changed game plans. He is going for big bombs. Huge head rocking strikes. I thought he had Tamura down, but Tamura SWEEPS THE LEG! Tremendous leg bar! Koshaka is forced to get the ropes. Tamura is now winning 5-3 after being down 3-1, scored four unanswered points. Whats interested is that Kohsaka gets the next rope break on the attempt of a submission. Tamura almost never goes for a rope break until he is in trouble. At the 5 minute mark of this match, he would have applied his wizardry to get out now instead he is so exhausted, he is just going for the rope break. Then Kohsaka actually controls a takedown and applies a guillotine choke and Tamura just gets his toe on the ropes. This is a very vulnerable Tamura. A side we dont see too often. It is 5-5 with 3 minutes left in the time limit. Kohsaka gets a very tired takedown that Tamura kneels into. This has gone from Man vs Man to Man vs Self. Each man is battling with his own body. Trying to will a victory when there is very little will left. Kohsaka looks poised to apply a submission, but Tamura wriggles free and climbs his back. REAR NAKED CHOKE! After all the defensive wizardry of Kohsaka, for Tamura to get a counter like this is huge. He leaves his feet dangling. Kohsaka gets the ankle cross. Tamura has to release the choke, but he goes for the cross-armbreaker, but the bell rings signaling a draw and it is a dead heat in points too at 5 apiece.
Terrific match. I liked the first twelve minutes, but I LOVED the last 18 minutes. Great story. I was really pulling for Kohsaka masterful defensive wrestling match turning defense into offense on numerous occasions and then becoming offensive-minded down the stretch. Tamura was great striking a balance between vulnerable and asskicker. I loved his mistakes fueled his rage. Then I loved the selling of exhaustion and how this became a struggle against their own bodies as much as it was against themselves. In the running for the best non-Volk Han RINGS match with the Kohsaka/Yamamoto draw from the year before. ****3/4
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Post by Cap on Mar 24, 2019 9:48:55 GMT -5
I currently have this as my top rated shoot match I think. I had just enough time to get into shoot, get a feel for it, and start to fall in love with some matches, but not quite enough time to really parse out my tastes in terms of the top tier matches. It will be represented well represented on my list, but i imagine shoot might have the most movement between this year and next year's lists.
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Post by superstarsleeze on Mar 24, 2019 17:32:47 GMT -5
I am the same way. I made a strong effort to get into shoot style. I think 5-10 matches will make my list but sometimes I still struggle to see the greatness in some highly regarded matches. Still Volk Han and Yoshiaki Fujiwara have become two of my favorite wrestlers and both would make my Top 25 Greatest Wrestlers Ever now from being unranked, virtually unknown commodities to me. So expect a lot of Han & Fujiwara. This or Yamamoto vs Kohsaka is my pick for best non-Han or non-Fujiwara shoot style match.
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Post by Cap on Mar 24, 2019 20:52:33 GMT -5
Totally the same. Volk Han's matches aren't my highest rated shoot matches, but he is probably my favorite shoot worker. Fujiwara is right up there with him, honestly. Again, this is something that might get straightened out a bit over the next year, but I just wont have time to work through that stuff again.
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Post by Cap on Jul 26, 2020 18:03:10 GMT -5
I just re-watched this along with a few other top 25 matches for me, just testing some waters to see if tastes of changed or things didn't hold up since I have spent most of my time since the last ballot on new stuff and/or fringe-ish matches.
This holds up and then some to my last watch. I was particularly interested in shoot because since the last ballot I discovered Sano's big 3 and Fujiwara's promotion and just lots of stuff that is a little different, but I really really love. I'm glad to see this remains my top shoot style match, not to pat myself on the back, but to see that the stuff that sticks with me sticks with me in a big way. I don't have a lot else to say about this that hasn't been, but I do think the rope breaks down the final 10 minute stretch were MASTERFUL. They played at the endge of disaster/reaching the rope so so well. I also think Tamura is a freak athlete who gets how to translate shoot skills into pro settings in a way no one has (not even the other greats), but I'm hard pressed to think of another performance where he looked this good in terms of his transitions, speed, and selling. This is a masterpiece in the style, all around.
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Post by elliott on Jul 27, 2020 1:15:56 GMT -5
Top 2 Japanese Mens match ever for me and my top non-brawl ever.
Cap, next time you watch it, focus on the beginning. They go like 8 or 9 minutes without any rope breaks.
Tamura was the best.
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Post by Cap on Jul 27, 2020 7:58:07 GMT -5
Ohhh for sure. Those late rope breaks and how they are implemented and executed are only possible because of their absence early. Their counters and technical chess match (and stubbornness) in those first 8ish minutes really sell the desperation of those breaks later. Just absolutely outstanding.
It was #9 and I just moved it up to #5 (might even move it to #4)
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Post by andylfc on Jul 28, 2020 16:15:51 GMT -5
Just finished re-watching this and it's still the 'fastest' 30 minutes ever. I couldn't believe when I checked the clock and it was 13 minutes in for the first rope break. Incredible build, technique and drama for the style. Should do very well on my ballot.
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Post by Cap on Aug 18, 2020 6:32:25 GMT -5
From my rewatch project on 8/17 Kiyoshi Tamura vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (6/27/1998) Current Rank: 5 Trending: Even My pick for the best shoot match ever lives up to my hype and my memory of it every time. I rewatched it recently and it shot up to the 5 spot. I expect it to stay around there after watching it right up against the elite of the elite. This is the high point of shoot style storytelling. It is gritty, urgent, and layered. I mentioned this in the thread earlier, but the rope breaks at the end just elevate everything they have done and make everything feel so threatening and malice. Elliott pointed out that there were no rope breaks early, which creates a wonderful juxtaposition that highlights the escalation of danger with every passing exchange. I would say I might like Sano/Suzuki a hair more personally, but this is the better, crisper, more developed and well executed match. I am not sure anything ahead of it will fall, but this is a match that will be tough to jump. It will likely come down to this vs 6/9/1995 for the 5 spot
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Post by mvz on Aug 27, 2021 20:59:12 GMT -5
I haven’t watched much shoot but this hit all the right buttons for me and will be on my list. This first half or so felt like a work of art to be admired. Matwork at an insanely high level. And then they made the intensity rose quite impressively. This was truly a joy to watch.
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