|
Post by elliott on Aug 16, 2019 5:32:56 GMT -5
Similar to Andre, when I first stumbled upon online wrestling fandom, I learned Roddy Piper was considered a bad in-ring worker by "smart" fans and would later learn many wrestlers thought the same thing. Everyone would praise his character but as a "wrestler" he wasn't considered very good. Not as bad as Andre, but in general Piper had a bad rap for years. Again I think this is just a crazy opinion. Piper was a truly great wrestler. He was an excellent babyface and heel. His matches against Greg Valentine as very highly regarded and everyone knows them, but he's had lots of really fun matches.
He was a great foil for Buddy Rose in Portland. Their singles feud was awesome and they were involved in some of the best tags of the 80s. In the WWF he had the Bret Hart match that everyone knows. I still think its underrated on some level. It is a fantastic match and maybe as much of a star-making performance as the Hart/Hennig match the summer before. I think he had some very good matches with Hogan and some awesome matches with Paul Orndorff. The MSG Cage Match with Rude is a nice cherry on the top. Even Starrcade 96 was way way way way better than it should have been. Really.
Piper was the man.
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Aug 16, 2019 6:28:10 GMT -5
I don't think piper is a "bad" wrestler, but I do think he is a bit... limited. Piper might be an all time brawler, really capable of creating chaos that feels organic. The Valentine matches are absolutely unreal and are sort of the epitome of what he was capable of in that regard. However, what made him great in that sort of environment made him limited in other settings. I actually don't like the Hart mania match all that much. It sucks that in the WWE narrative that is the "best Piper match" because 1) it isn't close to his best and 2) it put him in an environment that actually highlighted his limitations and made him look worse than he was). I agree that Piper is great, especially pre-wwe piper, but for all his strengths he had quite a few weaknesses that where weirdly highlighted in a lot of ways.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 17, 2019 4:43:55 GMT -5
I get the "limited" label. He's not "great" like how Billy Robinson or Daniel Bryan is. He's great like how Rock or Michael Hayes were.
I completely disagree about the Hart Mania match and think Piper was great in it. What they were doing as far as storytelling was pretty impressive. Babyface vs Babyface (and not just face vs face, but "friends") with Piper progressively heeling throughout the match (starting with the prematch promo) to get Bret over (the match was about elevating Bret) but not going so overboard that he's (Piper) a full fledged heel after the match. That's damn fine storytelling.
I actually would go so far as to say its my top Bret match not involving Austin or Owen.
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Aug 18, 2019 7:34:29 GMT -5
I would agree that the storytelling part of that was great, but I think the nuts and bolts weren't in piper's wheelhouse. Perhaps I was a bit clunky in my previous discussion. I don't actually think its a "bad" match, but I don't like it as much as most or as much as the WWE narrative does. The face v face (friend v friend) dynamic is very challenging and Piper does great with that part of it, but in the process, I just think they put him into a context with regard to the actual wrestling that wasn't his strength.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 19, 2019 3:47:46 GMT -5
I'm really not sure what you mean. I just watched it again and Piper is awesome in it. Any sort of sloppiness works within the story they're telling: Piper not taking Bret seriously & Bret being focused & more technically sound. There's only a couple of minutes of straight up wrestling before it starts to get into schtick and punching. Since we've been talking about punching lately, Piper's punching is excellent (especially the cheap shot uppercut).
Anyway, yeah. I think Piper was excellent in this role.
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Aug 19, 2019 7:19:08 GMT -5
Maybe I need to watch it again, but last time I did I just felt like it wasn't his best.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 20, 2019 3:20:14 GMT -5
*chants rhythmically* Watch it watch it! Its shorter than I remembered with the prematch promos, intros, match & post match all being less than 20 min. Piper's promo is really fun and he's playing the cocky not really heel but older uncle type not taking Bret seriously and it pissing Bret off. Really great segment all around.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Mar 20, 2020 3:02:36 GMT -5
Watched some random Roddy Piper tonight from WWF, Mid-Atlantic, All Japan and Puerto Rico. The Puerto Rico match was against Invader I and was the most disappointing thing I watched because it was just the last couple of minutes of a time limit draw and a post match beat down by Piper. I bet it was an awesome match. I gotta try and find some more Piper in PR thats for sure. From WWF I watched Piper vs Orndorff 7/13/85 MSG www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hE6Bb6Q9aIThis was really good. Kind of a Nitro main event style match 10 years early. Super hot crowd. Orndorff is all fired up & cuts a quick pace. Piper slows things down with dastardly heel moves like tossing Paul outside the ring, throat chops, eye pokes. Paul does a little arm work early and Piper continues to sell it well after cutting Paul off & going on offense. Good babyface vs heel stuff. Paul working fast & exciting, Piper being a dick & slowing the pace. Edit. I also just watced this Piper vs Orndorff 7/85 Philly Spectrum www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnbdi8wkd0sThis was fucking awesome. Just a sub-6minute wild hate-filled brawl in front of a super hot crowd. This wouldn't look out of place on a Memphis or Mid-South card at all. I also watched Piper vs Hercules 11/24/91 www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPJuKNE35qQThis was more fun than I expected. Kind of a competitive squash where Piper just kept finding different ways to outsmart Hercules. Piper even does a reverse roll to counter a test of strength William Regal style. Short watchable match with Piper doing totally different stuff than in the Orndorff match. From Mid-Atlantic I watched watched the Piper vs Valentine match where Piper first injures Piper's ear. www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6AGldaYRh4This is awesome. Super violent with awesome selling from Piper and brutal offense from Greg. I haven't watched this in a while. So I'm glad I did. Also from Mid Atlantic I watched Piper vs Dick Slater www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAdUFeOo3PYThis was JIP and what looks like a time limit draw with the ending cutting off with just seconds to go in the time limit. What we get is really good. Starts off slow with Slater controlling out of a side headlock. Piper's not the Destroyer in terms of counters, but he does some really fun stuff to try and work out of it. I really liked the spot where he smashed Slater's head in the turnbuckle while still in the headlock. Eventually picked they picked up the pace and it turned into a classic 80s title match draw finish with both guys picking up the intensity. I also watched two tag matches from All Japan where Roddy Piper & Dick Slater teamed up. The first was Piper & Slater vs Ashura Hara & Mighty Inoue 5/19/83 www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXbnr5lnQI8Cap mentioned somewhere about wanting to see Piper in early 80s NJPW or AJPW because he thought he'd excel in a brawl. So I hope Cap checks this out. This isn't something like Funks vs Abby & Sheik, but it is more like a future WAR match with lots of stiff shots. Piper is the star here running around blasting people. This was enjoyable and probably as good as the best Hart Foundation match I've ever seen. Last I watched Piper & Slater vs Giant Baba & Jumbo Tsuruta 6/3/83 www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2jUozwoep4This was an awesome match. Classic technical tag team match where they stay between the ropes and exchanges holds. Long enough where each guy gets enough time to get in their and do some things. Another one for Cap to take a look at because its Piper doing really good "between the ropes" things in a classic setting. Strange that he's roughly the same size as Jumbo. I've never really thought of Piper as a big guy. Anyway, this is really good & the Piper/Slater team had good chemistry. They bust out some nice double teams. Piper takes some really nice bumps, something I don't really think about at all when I think of Piper. This is easily better than any Hart Foundation match I've ever seen.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Mar 20, 2020 4:08:26 GMT -5
More Piper in WWF vs Haku Saturday Night Main Event www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVyY6iIAVuMHaku starts off by attacking Piper before the bell but Piper fights back and we get a slugfest and then in succession Piper hits a Uraken (!?!?), a running lariat to send Haku over the top rope (!), and then Piper follows up with a Thesz press from the apron to the floor!!! Holy shit. Some Heenan shenanigans lead to Haku getting the advantage. Piper is in that school of Terry Funk, Sangre Chicana, Invader I drunken stumbling spaghetti leg selling that is one of my favorite things in wrestling. Haku's kills Piper with a shoulder breaker. But it is shortlived as Haku misses a splash off the top rope. They quickly go to the finish which is Piper winning with a belly to belly suplex? Ok, sure! Bell to bell this is like 3 1/2 minutes but is a blast. Roddy was an offensive juggernaut here.
|
|
|
Post by shrike02 on Mar 20, 2020 15:38:46 GMT -5
There is some Piper vs Inoki out there, and he has a fun match against a very young Riki Choshu if I remember rightly. Both fun. Piper might have done only one New Japan tour?
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Mar 20, 2020 18:12:15 GMT -5
Piper vs Inoki sounds oddly intriguing. Watching some more Piper today while in lockdown.
I watched a trio of matches between Piper and Mr Perfect. 12/28/90, 1/25/91 and 2/91. They are all really similar in terms of layout with some of the same spots being exactly repeated. They use a double clothesline knockout spot and the exact same finish in all 3 matches. The matches aren't the exact same move for move and some different things are sprinkled throughout. For example, Piper does an awesome block of a Perfect desperation lowblow early in the first match. They don't do it in the other 2 matches, but have a similar spot late in those matches where Piper just barely blocks a head smash into an exposed turnbuckle. In two of the matches, Perfect goes for a suplex but collapses Piper on top of him for great nearfalls. They don't do it in the 3rd match. Piper does a swinging neckbreaker in one match but not the others.
You get the idea. The matches are super similar, but there are some differences. Pretty much to be expected from WWF in that era.
But here's the thing, they're all legit great matches. These two have awesome chemistry with Perfect at his over the top bumpiest and Piper knowing how to work intense brawls that mix in great comedy spots. Its kind of like the story of the Savage/Steamboat or Michaels/Ramon WM 10 ladder match. They went around the loop basically practicing the match, seeing what worked, keeping all the stuff that did and dropping some stuff they think didn't, but they were all similarly worked/structured.
I was delighted to see the PWO thread about the 12/28/90 match and all the praise it got. Stuff like "excellent match, WWF MOTY, felt like a Mid-South Coliseum match, my favorite Piper in WWF match, one of best WWF matches of the era" etc etc.
I would strongly recommend the Piper vs Perfect matches from this era.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Mar 28, 2020 4:46:44 GMT -5
Over in the Bret Hart vs Cena thread, Cap said this:
I've watched a bunch of Piper in WWF recently, and I totally disagree. Other than Randy Savage (and obviously Hogan), I think Piper was close to the perfect wrestler for the mid 80s-early 90s WWF first as a heel and then later as a babyface. Would Piper have had better matches in Mid-South or Texas or Crockett? Almost certainly. But its not like we can point to a bunch of territory wrestlers that came to WWF and were better. Butch Reed, Hacksaw Duggan, Dibiase, Hennig, Martel. Pick anybody other than Savage in that era and they took a step back when they went to WWF. Piper didn't have anything in the WWF that compares to the Valentine feud or stuff in Portland. Even that Baba/Jumbo tag match is better than probably 90% of Piper in WWF. But after watching him against a ton of different opponents from 84-92 WWF, he was still someone I'd call a great wrestler even if he wasn't necessarily churning out of the MOTYCs. In terms of WWF MOTYCs, he had a bunch. But on a worldwide or even US only level, there's only like 3 Hogan era WWF matches that are real MOTYCs.
Piper excelled at 5-15minute long storyline driven easily digestible matches. In the 84-87 Rock & Wrestling WWF Expansion Era, he's working for a more mainstream fair-weather audience. They weren't going to put on nuanced matches for that sort of audience. Piper was always put in a position to work shortish back and forth story line driven brawls. His manic energy, charisma, and selling were ideal for that era of WWF.
There is a fair amount of very good-borderline great Piper in WWF. In the Hogan era WWF, outside of Tito/Valentine, Tito/Savage & Savage/Steamboat there's not a ton of truly great stuff that would belong in a worldwide canon for the era. The setting just didn't lend itself to great matches in the way we often think of great matches. But if you enjoy hard hitting, fast paced, engaging, super heated spectacles, Piper is your man.
He gets put in some shitty situations at major shows. The Mr T Boxing match, vs Adonis, the Bad News Allen match were super memorable/major Piper moments. You have to look around more at pre-PPV major shows, TV, MSG, Boston Garden etc. There's nothing like Piper/Valentine in WWF. But Piper's WWF work absolutely adds to his resume and strengthens his case as a great wrestler.
I talked about the Mr Perfect matches above. They're all excellent. vs Hogan matches are fucking awesome. The War to Settle the Score is a top level Hogan match. Just an awesome main event/spectacle. WrestleMania I holds up shockingly well and honestly my biggest complaint was that he felt 6-10 minutes too short. It makes sense for them to not take that risk with that match. But it is a truly great spectacle and Piper/Orndorff are doing the real heavy lifting. Other tags from the Hogan rivalry like Hogan/Orndorff vs Piper/Orton Jr are great. vs Paul Orndorff they have an absolutely awesome like 7 minute brawl that would have fit right in on a Memphis or Mid-South card. vs Snuka they had some really awesome insanely heated hard hitting violent brawls where Piper is doing 99% of the work. Also tags w/ Orton Jr vs Snuka/Tonga Kid and singles vs Tonga Kid vs Rick Rude Cage Match MSG is a fucking awesome match w/ Hogan vs Orndorff & Harley Race was an out of nowhere super fun sprint. vs Bruno Cage Match & Piper/Orton Jr vs Bruno/Orndorff tag are both really fun. Piper/Bruno is was a really fun match-up and made me want to take a real look at Bruno. w/ Steamboat & JYD vs Adonis & Race & Savage MSG Elimination match is a truly great match and built completely around it being Piper's "last" MSG match. vs Flair, Savage, Haku, Michaels these are all one off 89-92 matches from babyface legend movie star Piper. Enjoyable basic matches.
Piper debuted in the WWF 1/24/84 and his first run was over by 3/29/87. He doesn't come back until 5/89. He worked a close-ish to full time schedule until 5/92. There's plenty of really good stuff in that 5 1/2ish years of work. Plus he made Body Slam & They Live during this era.
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Apr 9, 2020 14:48:32 GMT -5
Was reading an old WON from early 1991 and Meltzer casually mentioned that Piper & Hennig at that time (late 90/early 91) were having the best matches in the US.
|
|
|
Post by tetsujin on Feb 11, 2021 7:48:13 GMT -5
I LOVE Piper. He was awesome in Portland. His character is one of my favourites, to the point I would argue that he was the real mvp of the 1992 Rumble match and not Flair (who still had a great performance, obviously). I still need to watch more late-80s work, but everything else was, at least, fun as hell. Criminaly underrated brawler.
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Feb 11, 2021 13:00:30 GMT -5
I missed that post from Elliott above when he made it I guess. Maybe you are right. Maybe I need to revisit and expand my knowledge on piper during this time period. I'm really only thinking of a few more well known matches because I haven't watched the rest in AGES. So, maybe I'll like it more than I like the Hart/Piper match. It is pretty low on my list of stuff I wanna get to though. Except that Rude cage match. That shit sounds awesome.
|
|