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Post by elliott on Aug 28, 2019 17:52:44 GMT -5
I can't believe this hasn't been nominated yet. My bad. This might be my #2 Joshi MOTY for 1993 only behind Hokuto/Kandori. If this was a movie it would be called Bull vs Devil: Subtle Veteran Touches. For example Devil stomps on Bull's foot to gain the advantage during a collar & elbow tie up or Bull digging an elbow into Devil's ribs while holding Devil in a submission. This match is full of stuff like that, but it is also one of the most ambitious matches you'll see. These two worked together in the 80s of course, but by 1993 they had not worked a singles match together in years. That they had a 37+ minute match of this quality is genuinely remarkable. Really I can't imagine any other Joshi workers working a match this good in this style. The drama and atmosphere are top notch here with a really great & invested crowd & the two wrestlers pulling out all the stops. The submission work is amazing here with both women doing tricked out lucha style submissions mixed in with your more traditional pro stuff. Bull even did a single leg crab as nasty and brutal looking as any you ever saw from Kawada. They would drop bombs before going back to doing more crazy submissions and eventually picking it up to drop more bombs. But this has a feeling of escalation throughout, before it just explodes down the stretch with both women pulling out anything they can think of. There are huge powerbombs, topes, moves off the top rope, etc. The pacing & selling are top notch. The beginning, middle and end are all excellent and the finish totally satisfying. Definitely one of the best matches of all time.
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Post by elliott on Aug 28, 2019 23:02:37 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this match all day and kinda want to watch it again already.
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Post by elliott on Aug 9, 2020 18:51:48 GMT -5
Bumping this to put it on Caps radar because of his recent comments about Devil and Bull. I saw in an old WON it was rated 5 stars at the time. Its in my top 20 for this years ballot.
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Post by microstatistics on Aug 9, 2020 22:17:56 GMT -5
I'm surprised at how high you are on this. Not saying you are wrong but this seems to get lost in the shuffle considering the general quality of joshi in 1993. Loss had it at #37 for the year.
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Post by elliott on Aug 9, 2020 23:50:22 GMT -5
Its different from most of the Joshi of that era. It doesnt have the relentless pace but a proper build and escalation. More emphasis on the details than the excesses of 90s Joshi. I think its closer to 6/3/94 or Funk vs Race than than something like Kong vs Hotta or Kansai vs Kong.
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Post by Cap on Aug 10, 2020 18:52:49 GMT -5
Ohh yeah... I watched this a while back and this is currently ranked pretty high for me... in the 30s.
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Post by elliott on Aug 10, 2020 19:37:29 GMT -5
Ohh yeah... I watched this a while back and this is currently ranked pretty high for me... in the 30s. Oh hell yeah! |
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Post by Cap on Aug 16, 2020 9:22:52 GMT -5
From my rewatch project on 8/13/2020 Bull Nakano vs Devil Masami (4/18/1993) Current Rank: 32 Trending: Down I decided to give this one more watch because it was a relatively late addition to the list. It is sort of in my wheelhouse right now, so I assumed I might have been a touch high on it. I felt that coming out of this watch. This is a great match. It is a lock for my top 100 (probably sticking around the top 50 – 70 (at the lowest), but thinking about it next to some of those matches in the 30s, it wasn’t quite there. I can’t take anything away from it though. This match is an absolute war. The escalation here is really masterful and the personality they extract from the action is excellent. This is the kind of match that, if you were open to joshi generally, you could watch without any context or knowledge of these wrestlers and immediately “get”. I think where this really excels is being organic. I have watched some of my favorite matches from 2020 recently as well and this just blows them out of the water. It isn’t as tight and neat, but there is just so much more believable hate and organic storytelling that I think is so much harder to capture in the modern mainstream makeup of wrestling. I am sort of thinking out loud about macro level stuff now, but you get the point. This is great wrestling, especially if you miss the visceral, exhaustion you can pretty much only get from the spontaneity of two truly great wrestlers just feeling things out as they go. Full Post: gweproject.freeforums.net/post/8420 |
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Post by elliott on Mar 3, 2021 22:23:02 GMT -5
If you're digging Joshi these days, I wanted to recommend this one as a big time classic
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Post by mvz on Mar 4, 2021 6:53:38 GMT -5
Thanks for the recommendation on this. The comments about this being an effective gateway match ring true to me. A great blend of bomb throwing and really interesting submission moves. As Elliot points out, there are lots of little touches added to add layers to this match. So interesting after seeing so many weapons that the nunchucks are used only briefly in the middle of the match and mostly for dramatic effect. Devil came off as a total badass at that time and thoughout the whole match. Great match, great storytelling.
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Post by elliott on Mar 4, 2021 19:15:04 GMT -5
I still think this is one of the most impressive matches of all time. They hadn't worked together in years by this point and go out and do this? Amazing. Excluding two Kiyoshi Tamura matches, I had this as my highest ranked non-brawl in the last vote. Nothing I've seen since would change that.\
MVZ, since you enjoyed this one, I would recommend checking out the two Bull Nakano vs Aja Kong singles matches from 1992 as two super heavyweights going at it. The mat work isn't as great (Aja wasn't the mat worker Devil was) but I think they're probably the most similar Joshi matches to Bull vs Devil in terms of pacing. I know you weren't into the Bull vs Aja 11/90 cage match, but Aja has become much better by 1992 and more capable of having matches less reliant on weapons and her spinning back fist. (The uraken is awesome, but its like all shes got in 1990 so it loses some effect for sure)
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Post by mvz on Mar 7, 2021 20:12:13 GMT -5
I will check out those cage matches, I am a huge bull fan and I know Aja is an all time great. I Will check them out and type up comments soon:)
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Post by tetsujin on Apr 9, 2021 4:24:17 GMT -5
Devil Masami is badass as fuck. She's totally a living legend in this match, going toe to toe with Bull Nakano, the wrestler that dominated joshi in the last three years or so. I LOVE how much you can tell Devil is enjoying the fight she's having with Bull, and how Bull can't believe how tough this is becoming. Both had great facial expressions and body language to help tell the story. The nunchuks spot pretty much sumarizes it: Bull can't put her down and has enough, but Masami's like "go ahead darling I want everything you have". Amazing characters interaction right there. The ringwork itself is very interesting: lots of details, intensity behind everything and, obviously, everything felt pretty organic as Cap said, and that's really difficult in a long, back and forth match.
However, I think the match was like 10 minutes longer than it should have been and there were a few moments it dragged a bit (just a few moments, though), in a way it reminded me of some modern, ambitious, "classic" matches were you feel they're going +35 minutes because that's what epicness feels like. They executed it waaaay better than most of today's matches, obviously, but still. Also, I didn't like how early the first top rope legdrop came, and the overall excess of kickouts for it later, but that only makes this match great instead of all-time classic level, nothing that ruins the whole experience or whatever.
Clear contender for my top 100.
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Post by lemming on Jan 28, 2022 6:41:46 GMT -5
Elliot pitched this to me during the 2021 countdown and I just got round to watching it, so thanks for the recommendation.
Very early in the match they presented Devil as the stronger and tougher of the two. Given this took place in 93 and Bull has the size advantage I was surprised by that, but having established that dynamic they were true to it throughout. Devil worked on top most of the match and seemed to find it much easier to hit her big moves and to cut off her opponent's comebacks. Bull had to struggle uphill a lot more and I liked that after Devil took so much of the opening 15 minutes, Bull couldn't just take over the offense for her 'turn'; her comeback was much more layered and gradual and sold the damage she had taken.
Like others have already commented above, the pacing of the match is really well crafted and keeps the drama building. Despite the length I found this a very easy and compelling watch. Maybe they could have cut out a couple of the near falls in the second half and as tetsujin says the first Bull leg drop came too early and didn't get much reaction. But leaving those small nits unpicked, this was a great match and both wrestlers impressed in it.
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Post by elliott on May 21, 2023 21:57:44 GMT -5
Bumping this because it's better than practically every match that made the top 100 last time around and people who like big epic title match style wrestling like Misawa/Kobashi or Okada/Tanahashi or FLair/Steamboat or whatever should watch this.
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