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Post by elliott on Sept 1, 2019 5:31:13 GMT -5
I was thinking about it and he has more legit great matches I can think of off the top of my head than I realized. vs Austin WM 15, 16, 19 vs HHH Ladder mach & Miracle Iron Man vs Jericho I think No Mercy was the awesome one vs Foley vs Hogan vs Brock vs Benoit vs Angle
I'm probably forgetting some stuff, but his best stuff was really great. Had his flaws as a worker, but was smarter than he got credit for at the time and always worked his ass off. Glad for his success in Hollywood.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 2, 2019 8:39:01 GMT -5
He probably wouldn't rate on a top 100 list for me although he was absolutely one of my favorites growing up. That being said, I agree that he was smarter than he got credit for because he knew how to work both face and heel effectively where either way, he would have the crowd in the palm of his hand. Cocky and bumping like crazy as a heel for Austin yet coming back with fire as a face against Triple H or Angle.
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Post by kas on Sept 2, 2019 9:43:42 GMT -5
Incredibly smart wrestler and even in bad matches, he stood out with how hard he worked and his character work. Would add the Punk matches, which really do not get enough credit, the first Cena match, and he was a big reason for how good the Armageddon 6-man HIAC was. The three-way with Angle and Taker as well is one of my favourite three-ways.
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Post by Cap on Sept 2, 2019 18:16:52 GMT -5
I 100% agree that the Rock has a lot of great matches (none that made my top 100 last time, but plenty of really great matches). I think he is actually underrated as an in ring performer on the whole, and slightly overrated as an overall talent. I mean there is no denying his star power and influence during the attitude era, but I find a lot of his promos don't hold up all that well and when he has come back it mostly falls flat to me (again, outside the wrestling itself). He is someone who more or less does the same thing over and over and people cheer because of nostalgia. Compare that to someone like Batista who came back and actually flexed some creative muscles too in terms of how he did promos, how he carried himself, etc. And while he isn't the biggest criminal in this regard, he is part of a movement that shifted promos from a sort of unique thing that built heat, sold the match, made your opponent look stronger or at least legit... to the insult exchange genre that is just eh. He wasn't nearly as bad about it as some, especially getting the event and the match over, but a lot of people who dive into lowest common demonstrator stuff draw a lot of inspiration from The Rock.
All that is sort of an aside to this project. I really want to take a look at some of his best matches, especially those Austin matches, before the next round. I have come around on his style a good bit more in the past few years and haven't since really sat down with The Rock's best work.
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Post by elliott on Sept 3, 2019 3:14:55 GMT -5
Rock was a great WWE promo in his era in the way that Ultimate Warrior was in his era. Would that be fair?
I know he's known as a great talker, but his era of WWE is basically the last era of wrestling I want to revisit in terms of angles & promos. I can't imagine any of it holding up.
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Post by Cap on Sept 3, 2019 6:50:13 GMT -5
That is pretty fair.
I have dabbled back in the "attitude era" here and there and it is almost always painful. I don't have much nostalgia for that era left despite being prime target age when it was going on.
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Post by elliott on Sept 3, 2019 15:46:16 GMT -5
Same. I don't ever need to see a Godfather match again.
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Post by elliott on Sept 3, 2019 16:46:30 GMT -5
I think the Hogan match might be the most impressive Rock performance. With Rock, and really any big WWE match at the time, you're going to see arguments that they had major booking advantages compared to wrestlers in other places and times. For a major match between two legends in 2000s WWE, you could use just about any booking trick you wanted and take plenty of time to plan shit out ahead of time. That they were able to change gears once the match actually started and switch the heel/face roles seamlessly shows an amazing ability to think on your feet. That he did it again against Brock later in the Summer is also really amazing since Brock didn't have any kind of experience at that point.
I do kind of want to revisit the Iron Man match with HHH because I always really enjoyed it and that might be another candidate for Rock's most impressive performance.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 3, 2019 20:04:32 GMT -5
I always thought he took a bit too much offense as a babyface. His comebacks were always really energetic but he seems to have been maybe the first top WWE babyface to get beaten up by his opponents for 60% of the match which has pretty much been the formula used since. I like to see a bit more back-and-forth unless the face is much smaller than the heel.
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Post by elliott on Sept 3, 2019 20:12:38 GMT -5
I always thought he took a bit too much offense as a babyface. His comebacks were always really energetic but he seems to have been maybe the first top WWE babyface to get beaten up by his opponents for 60% of the match which has pretty much been the formula used since. I like to see a bit more back-and-forth unless the face is much smaller than the heel. Hogan always worked from underneath. Its how the Hulk up was possible. Shawn in 96?
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Post by nintendologic on Sept 4, 2019 8:40:56 GMT -5
A minor correction: the second Rock/Austin match was at WM17, not 16. Also, it's been a while since I've seen either, but I remember their match at Backlash being quite a bit better than the WM15 match.
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Post by KB8 on Sept 4, 2019 8:58:13 GMT -5
The Backlash '99 match is really fun and I thought it was definitely better than the Wrestlemania 15 match. It's one of those matches, along with Austin/Foley from Over the Edge, Rock/HHH from Backlash 2000 and Undertaker/Mankind in the cell, that encapsulates the Attitude Era for me.
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