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Post by Cap on Sept 14, 2019 12:10:54 GMT -5
I sometimes think the definition of "ace" can get a little muddied. There are your obvious aces, but drawing clear distinctions might be a little tougher. One thing I always think of when I think of "aces" of companies and/or "ace runs" is producing great matches at the top of the card that elevate belts and companies. Who are some of your favorite "aces" and what matches did they produce that you have on your list or are contenders?
Also, maybe this is a time to talk about Aces a bit more broadly?
What makes an Ace?
Who is the best Ace?
Who is the worst Ace?
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Post by Cap on Sept 14, 2019 12:14:20 GMT -5
I'll start with a less obvious one, though one I think is generally known in these circles I think. I believe that Trevor Lee's run at the top of CWF Mid Atlantic was incredible. He was a true ace for the company, putting it on the map, elevating the title, making a small strip mall outside of Greensboro NC an actual destination for wrestling. He produced a lot of really high quality matches in that run, but his match with Chip Day has always stood out to me and is the only one I have really considered. I was in the building and it was one of the most dramatic matches over the second half of it I have ever seen, truly top-shelf stuff. The only thing that keeps it off my list is the first quarter of the match just being good and not very good to great. It honestly isn't a knock... its just the difference between an incredible match and one of the top 100 of all time.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 14, 2019 14:38:57 GMT -5
My pick for best ace run of the 2010's as well as one of my personal favorites is Kazuchika Okada. He wasn't really made the undisputed ace of NJPW until he finally unseated Tanahashi in 2016, but his build as a 1b to Tanahashi's 1a prior to Wrestle Kingdom 10 was very well booked and produced a series of terrific matches. The story of Okada going from a hot shot prodigy to a mature if still occasionally cocky ace is also one of my favorite storylines ever (even if it went a year longer than it really needed to) with Okada proving to be Tanahashi's equal if not better in every arena but the Tokyo Dome. It all built to one of my favorite visuals in a match with Okada refusing to break wrist control at Wrestle Kingdom 10, finally getting the win that had eluded him for 3 years.
With the exception of a brief title loss to Naito in 2016, Okada pretty much dominated the title picture the next two years with some of the greatest IWGP title matches ever (not to mention shattering nearly every record in the process). There were a few lackluster matches, but the series with Kenny Omega and defense against Shibata alone make his title run arguably one of the best ever. And even if he should have lost the title to Naito at Wrestle Kingdom 12, the remainder of his run saw some more good title matches before finally losing to Omega in one of the greatest matches ever. A fitting end for such a historic title reign.
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Post by elliott on Sept 14, 2019 15:26:12 GMT -5
Its rare at this point that I don't like an ace, even if their approach is different. Like Flair as Ace of the NWA worked different from Ace Carlos Colon but they were both awesome. You get all the opportunities possible to produce when you're the #1 guy in the promotion. Some of my favorites? I mean, Lawler in Memphis, Rose in Portland, Baba in JWA, Baba in AJPW, Jumbo in AJPW, Misawa in AJPW, Hashimoto in NJPW, Chigusa in AJW, Bull in AJW, Kong in AJW, Kandori in LLPW, Colon in PR, Gagne in AWA, Bock in AWA, Flair in the 80s, Hogan in the 80s, Liger, Maeda, Onita, Ishikawa, Backlund in WWWF, Von Erichs in World Class, Vader in WCW, Bret in WWF, Shawn, Cena, Austin, etc.
Lucha doesn't really have Aces like we think of in US or Japan so I'm not sure what to do with that. You could maybe say Hijo del Santo or Atlantis were Aces of Apuestas matches.
The worst aces are people like HHH, Justin Credible in ECW and 95-96 Muto.
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Post by KB8 on Sept 14, 2019 15:39:22 GMT -5
My favourite Ace run might be Tenryu's as he was pretty much the undisputed number 1 guy in SWS and then WAR, and in all those multi-promotional feuds he was the one who you knew for damn certain was the final boss. I think a cool - and let's face it; probably a necessary - quality for a great Ace is being able to elevate others without ever losing too much of your aura, and while Tenryu was about as unselfish as any Ace could be he was never anything other than the Tenryu you bought beating anybody in front of him (well, until he turned 73 or whatever). I guess the one knock there would be that he never truly "made" another star the way, say, Jumbo did Misawa, but for as much as I love guys like Kitahara and Ishikawa and Hara to death, I don't think there was ever a scenario where they were going to be anything close to the SWS/WAR Misawa.
Hashimoto may also be the guy who comes to mind first when I'm asked to think of an Ace. Everything about him struck me as being what was needed to be The Man. More so than pretty much anybody ever (I know Flair did outside of the ring, but he worked from beneath a ton inside the ring and we all know why that is and it's not a knock and I don't want to open any can of worms about Flair "playing the bitch" or whatever because we one and all had our fill of that during the GWE).
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Post by elliott on Sept 14, 2019 15:47:05 GMT -5
My favourite Ace run might be Tenryu's as he was pretty much the undisputed number 1 guy in SWS and then WAR, and in all those multi-promotional feuds he was the one who you knew for damn certain was the final boss. I think a cool - and let's face it; probably a necessary - quality for a great Ace is being able to elevate others without ever losing too much of your aura, and while Tenryu was about as unselfish as any Ace could be he was never anything other than the Tenryu you bought beating anybody in front of him (well, until he turned 73 or whatever). I guess the one knock there would be that he never truly "made" another star the way, say, Jumbo did Misawa, but for as much as I love guys like Kitahara and Ishikawa and Hara to death, I don't think there was ever a scenario where they were going to be anything close to the SWS/WAR Misawa. Perhaps it wasn't to the degree of Jumbo/Misawa because he was further along by the time he hooked up with Tenryu, but you could say Hashimoto. Hash wasn't the Ace at the beginning of Tenryu vs NJPW but he was at the end. |
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Post by KB8 on Sept 14, 2019 16:08:00 GMT -5
I honestly don't know enough about the booking and hierarchy of New Japan around then to add much to what you said, but having watched pretty much everything from the WAR/New Japan feud minus that final Tenryu/Hash match, this makes a lot of sense to me. Like, I couldn't have said one way or the other when Hash truly became The Man, but I'm pretty sure most folk figured it was likely to be Mutoh (or maybe Chono, to a lesser extent) out of the Musketeers and yet there was a reason they kept going back to Hashimoto. I certainly think it's fair to say Tenryu had a fairly big hand in Hashimoto's star rising the way it did.
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Post by bossrock on Sept 14, 2019 16:32:17 GMT -5
That's interesting as Choshu-Hashimoto always came off as more of a passing of the torch series to me.
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Post by KB8 on Sept 14, 2019 17:23:07 GMT -5
In a way it does to me as well, but Hashimoto had already beaten Choshu twice by the middle of 1990 and at that point you knew Hash was destined to be special. I don't think that first win over Choshu in '89 established him as the Ace, though -- just as a guy who was fucking great and was obviously going places (which is cool in its own right, of course). When Tenryu came in he ran roughshod over everyone and I think in 1993, of all the New Japan crew, only lost in singles to Choshu (who he'd already beaten earlier in the year anyway). He'd beaten Hash in singles twice. Then he beat Inoki at the Dome in '94. Hash being the guy to topple him and basically win the war (pun POSSIBLY intended) for New Japan feels like a massive moment and more like a statement win than any of the previous Choshu victories (maybe that's because Choshu seemed to trade wins with everyone, which was clearly one of his booking staples).
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Post by elliott on Sept 15, 2019 3:11:26 GMT -5
I meant to reference someone else playing a major role in Hash's ascension at the time and it being Choshu. Obviously they worked together a bunch and Hash was his protege and Choshu was the booker. But in terms of when his career springboarded from top young wrestler to undisputed Ace was Tenryu feud.
NJPW under Choshu was much less traditional compared to AJPW and had more of a "on any given night anyone could get a win." Tenzan beating Hash in the 96 G1 is a great example of something that would never ever happen under Baba. So while Hash in 89-92 was someone you could put in main events and beat top guys, he wasn't the Ace at that point and hadn't separated himself from Muto & Chono from his own generation let alone everyone else. It was Muto & Chono who headlined the first G1 tournament in 91 with Chono winning. The following year Chono bagged his 2nd G1 Tourney and Muto became the first Musketeer to win the IWGP title. Hash really separated himself at some point during the Tenryu feud in the middle of his two long runs with the title from 9/93-5/95. Muto briefly took the torch winning the IWGP Title, G1 Climax & first Takada Dome match in a 5month stretch, but Hash reclaimed his spot when he beat Takada.
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