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Post by Cap on Dec 8, 2017 19:00:41 GMT -5
Bryan Danielson vs Low-Ki (ROH - 3/30/2002)
This is one I might be the high vote on. I think this match is absolutely incredible, particularly in the context of what they were doing and the audience they were speaking to. These two were made for each other at the time. This is violent malice that establishes the stakes of the match (deep personal pride) from bell to bell. I have loved this match from the first moment I saw it and always will. Whereas a lot of stuff from this period doesn't hold up quite as well, this 100% does.
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Post by elliott on Dec 8, 2017 19:26:08 GMT -5
Seconded. I don't think I've seen this since probably April 2002, and I don't remember anything about it, but I'll push through the nomination. Honestly the ECWA match with Ricky Steamboat as Guest Ref and the JAPW Submission match are legit contenders for me so I feel more than comfortable supporting this with literally no memory of it.
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Post by El Mckell on Jan 12, 2018 8:58:59 GMT -5
Holy shit, here's one that'll probably make my list. Some of the best most intense grapplefuck i've ever seen followed by some wonderful finisher kickouts. Low Ki in this era was so great and obviously Dragon is an all timer and both guys really show us what they can do here.
****3/4 move it to the nominees folder
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Post by childs on Jan 12, 2018 10:59:08 GMT -5
This was a fantastic match, and the only question for me is which Danielson-Ki will represent on my ballot (the JAPW match from '02 is probably the other leading contender). One of my all-time favorite match-ups.
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Post by Cap on Jan 18, 2018 11:27:46 GMT -5
One thing that stands out about this is that it is a real testament to how good both men were at the little things and how they could make everything meaningful. This match could easily get the label of "excess" if you just look at the structure and how the move go. But they do everything between well. They sell and pace everything so that it never FEELS excessive. Its honestly a strength of both men that they carried through most of their careers.
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Post by bossrock on Aug 20, 2018 22:27:29 GMT -5
Tremendous match and might be the finest display of matwork I've ever seen. Everything has purpose and everything looks like absolute torture. And the escalation from submissions to strikes and suplexes is masterful. It's insane to think both guys were already this good in 2002.
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Post by superstarsleeze on Feb 23, 2019 19:26:56 GMT -5
I loved this match! The chain wrestling in the beginning was so compelling. I liked the transition being Ki kicking Bryan in his bad eye. The finish run was very exciting...a little overblown in the vein of NOAH Main Event but still it felt gargantuan. Hard to say if this or the JAPW match is better. They are so differeht and speak to their versatility and greatness. American Dragon vs Low-Ki - ROH 3/30/02 The more I watch really early independents (focused on Danielson, AJ, Joe and Ki) the more you do NOT see the All Japan or New Japan Juniors influence instead the influence truly is strong style (the style of Inoki & Karl Gotch) that being New Japan Heavyweights and BattlArts. That is not something I was expecting. So often you hear "Strong Style" confused with "King's Road" or any wrestling that is stiff. Strong style to me is way more mat-based and strike-oriented. It is one shade away from shoot-style. This has been an excellent strong style match. Note the physical contact time in this match. There is flesh on flesh and body on body for the vast majority of he first fifteen minutes as opposed to rope running and Irish Whips, none of that bullshit. Ken Shamrock is the Special Guest Ref to add cred to this match, his mutton chops are out of control. The chain wrestling is good in this match. I cant do it justice so I will just give snippets here and there. I really liked Danielson doing the ankle cross to avoid a Low-Ki choke. Low-Ki was an excellent ground-pound dude. He was using headbutts, elbows, knees and kicks while on the ground to constantly add a different look. Danielson turned that ankle cross into a rocking horse, which was insane. Like I said it was so hard-hitting and the submissions were so tight. Everything looked like a struggle. The complexion of the match changes around the ten minute mark. Each man had wrestled the Fallen Angel Christopher Daniels earlier in the night as a part of a Round Robin Challenge. Ki won and Dragon lost. In Dragon's match, he got a cut on his eye. Ki blasted him with a kick to the bad eye that sent Dragon to the outside. What I loved about this was each time Ki got a shot to Dragon's bad eye he would powder and come back even more furious. Dragon applied two wicked submissions on Ki in response to this first salvo to his eye. Ki wriggled free and blasted Danielson in the eye with Kawada Kicks (so there is some All Japan influence ) Again, Danielson comes back more furious. Great lock up and Ki tries to knee him in the eye, but Danielson wrestles him down into the mat. I love how Dragon is going for Cattle Mutilation and then a Dragon Suplex but settles for a back suplex. Why did I like this because there was no break in physical contact. It was all struggle. Ki was blocking and Danielson was responding by switching holds. Danielson is working a hold and Ki is throwing these nasty knees from a seated position to Danielson's bad eye. Ki gets up high enough to hit that insane Kawada flip kick (the one Kawada usually uses to block a German Suplex) from a crazy spot and Danielson is down again due to his eye. First half of the match has been so insanely good just dripping with urgency and struggle. From here the match turns more into an All Japan style bomb throwing match, but there is still plenty of submission nearfalls and work that is rooted in the front half. Ki pulverizes Danielson with chops and kicks. There is one kick to the back that I thought was so hard that Danielson were going to pop out of his head. Ki is able to use his Dragon Clutch and a rear naked choke to drain the life out of Danielson out on the floor. There is an insane spot here Ki hits a double stomp, stands on Danielson, Danielson bridges and then Ki hits a double stomp. MARK OUT CITY! Ki looks to finish him with the Ki Krusher, but Danielson hits a roaring elbow. Danielson hits a top rope diving headbutt stupidly I may add and I love that it is Ki that actually gets the cover on that move. Serves Dragon right. Ki hits his back handspring jumping kick that looks phenomenal. Ki applies Cattle Mutiliation, but Danielson wriggles free into a Dragon Clutch. I think that was the best finisher stealing spot I have ever seen. I was pumping my fist. Danielson starts throwing Ki around with some big suplexes and for the first time it looks like Danielson is in charge. Low-Ki wants his Tidal Wave which is his big transition move. Danielson hits a picture-perfect dropkick to the midsection to block. Oooooo I didnt love Low Ki hitting a brainbuster there. I didnt feel like he earned it. Up until that point, the transitions were perfect. Ki has a handful of hair and just destroys Danielson's face with a barrage of Kawada kicks. Brutal to the max, brutha! KI KRUSHER! 1-2-NO! Low-Ki & I cant believe it. Ki decides he knows to go one louder and is going for the Phoenix Splash. Low Ki may be the most complete wrestler ever from an offensive standpoint. The Phoenix Splash is off target and eats knees. DRAGON SUPLEX! But American Dragon cant hold the bridge and only gets two. The match does go a little NOAH in the sense they go overboard with the highspots...Dragon hits a Super Back Suplex and then Ki hits a Super Ki Krusher...which is not the finish. This has been an amazing cardio exhibition they are going hard and there has been almost zero downtime in this match. Dragon catches Ki in the back handspring...Dragon Suplex...No...Reverse Cradle Suplex wicked snap to that. Dragon needs two Cattle Mutilation but Low-Ki taps out! Wow! What a match! I am exhausted just watching this. Incredible work from these two. You had it all: amazing chain wrestling, stiff strikes, big time bombs and a hot finish stretch. Do they go a little overboard yes, but goddamn this is intense wrestling. Everything felt urgent like both men wanted to win this match so badly and they were struggling for every move. I have really enjoyed going back and watching early 2000s Indy Wrestling. ****3/4
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Post by microstatistics on Oct 10, 2020 21:16:58 GMT -5
"Respect and honor" "Sports entertainment bad. WWF bad. ROH good. ROH real wrestling". Good god, the commentary for this was intolerable.
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Post by Cap on Oct 11, 2020 9:34:23 GMT -5
Ohhh yeah.... early ROH commentary was HORRENDOUS (in a few different ways).
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Post by KB8 on Nov 23, 2020 10:46:34 GMT -5
I basically muted the commentary, or at least had it low enough that I couldn't hear the nonsense they were saying but still provided some semblance of AMBIANCE. Anyway, this is great:
These two are probably the closest we've ever had to a US Ishikawa v Ikeda. It's really a match-up made in heaven and if I watched every Danielson/Low-Ki match from the early 00s and compared them with every Danielson/Nigel McGuinness match from the mid 00s, I'd be shocked if I didn't come away thinking the former held up way better (outside of that 6th Anniversary match anyway). This one isn't quite as all-time level spectacular as the JAPW match from June, but it had a bunch of the same qualities. The matwork is as strong as any matwork in US history. It's tight, gritty, all of it applied violently and you buy them trying to rend limbs. In between Low-Ki would throw vicious strikes - the short punts to the eye, one upkick that was insane - while Danielson would stretch him like this was some Stu Hart torture session. Danielson's ground and pound also ruled and the part where he was raining down crossfaces was fucking unbelievable. It's striker v grappler in a lot of ways, but like the very best Ishikawa/Ikeda that doesn't mean Ki is useless on the mat or Danielson can't throw strikes. The main difference between this and the JAPW match is that the last fifteen minutes are more along the lines of your indie/juniors dream match. That's not really my jam but this was done about as well as I could want. The selling remained strong, the pacing was good, everything they hit looked as snug and and painful as you'd want, I never felt like anything was overkill, the finish itself was great...even at about 32 minutes it was pretty much the perfect modern day epic and one that holds up nearly twenty years later. I haven't said that about a lot of matches from 2002 trying to shoot for the same thing, especially not ones that run half an hour.
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Post by Cap on Jun 12, 2023 19:57:23 GMT -5
I had really hoped to sit down and do a longer review of this match to - hopefully - drum up some interest in it before the deadline this year. It is becoming painfully clear that isn't going to happen. It is a match I think a lot of people know I am super high on. It finished VERY well for me on the last ballot and will finish VERY well for me yet again. However, despite being near universally appreciated, it still feels a bit under the radar as a match people are talking about and thinking about. I suspect this is a combination of being not quite on that canonically elite list that folks feel the need to address it in some way, nor is it an under the radar banger that folks want to make sure everyone sees. So, in lieu of a more detailed review, I wanted to hit you with some things that stand out to me because this is a match I want to encourage folks to spend some time on soon, if not for the project, for your enjoyment.
1. My favorite thing about this time period, and this is a point I've made many times here, is that it feels like a time when you can see all the varied influences wrestlers had in a really unique way. They were blended into cohesive packages, but that blend wasn't fully formed yet. In turn, it was a bit more raw and rough around the edges. I feel like you can see the rings, fu ten, ajpw, and battlarts influences... among others. To be able to see those things unfold in the 2000s indy's in a way that didn't feel forced or self indulgent is pretty impressive.
2. This match demonstrates masterful escalation. As others have discussed here, they get to the big moves but build to everything in such a way that never feels forced. They never do anything to break the immersion and really let you luxuriate in the near falls and submission down the stretch. I think both men excel at this throughout their careers, but you see them demonstrating some mastery early in their careers here.
3. Unsurprisingly, neither Low Ki nor Dragon were throwing soft strikes and resting in their holds here. This is deceptively physical. It isn't Ikeda vs Ishikawa in Fu Ten or anything, but it is filled with snug strikes, tight counters, and grinding submissions. They ooze urgency from bell to bell. It is in the offense, the selling, and even in the lock ups and they way they move.
4. This match feels like the fastest 30 minutes I can think of. Between the escalation and the pacing, they manage to keep the action moving in such a way that really facilitates engagement. I mention this because I think it strikes a nice balance for folks around here. I think there is - on the whole - a lot of long match fatigue. Of course lots, most of us are open to great matches in many forms, but it feels like there is a general shift (here and elsewhere) to appreciating a short match. I think this sort of captures what is good about your 40... 50... even 60 minute epics with the violent sprints.
5. Balance Balance Balance. I know it isn't the sexiest attribute for a great match to have, but this match has it and it is important. It isn't excessive. It isn't overly contrived. It also isn't reserved and conservative. It hits all the right notes from start to finish. Even reading that back, it is vague and borderline vapid, but I think when you watch the match back you will see what I am saying. To be able to walk the line is tough, especially when both men push the violence and urgency so consistently.
6. The ebbs and flows of the physical storytelling look and feel organic here. The way each man turns the tide, gets angry, works on top in control. I don't know if it is planned in advance or not, but it certainly doesn't feel like it.
So there you have it. Detail in my reviews and analysis is never really my strength, but I think there are some broad strokes qualities that this match really excels in. Put them together you have something pretty special. This is why it will wind up doing quite well on my ballot.
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Post by tetsujin on Dec 27, 2023 8:46:04 GMT -5
Yeah as I said in my personal project thread, this is a #1 contender to me. I called it "the best shoot style match ever", but yeah it is true that it has elements of every cool genre of pro wrestling. It trascends its shoot style approach. I believe this is what guys like Karl Gotch, Inoki, Baba, Gagne, Thesz, etc envisioned, all of it merged into this fantastic, perfect hybrid of a match that takes the best parts of their different legacies. But the thing is, while you're watching the match, you don't think that in the moment. All I could think was "damn that's the best thing he could have done at that particular moment". It's just so natural, it's all so organic. They're just fighting with all they have, smartly but brutally, cold-minded but full of adrenaline when needed. It's the perfect balance of a match in every way I can think of.
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