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Post by Cap on Oct 2, 2019 19:14:41 GMT -5
We were talking about this a lot in the Kawada thread, so I thought we should just make a space to address it. I threw Akiyama in there for good measure. I THINK most people sort of think of the pillars as the original "Four Pillars of Heaven", but Akiyama always ends up in the conversation and gets the "Fifth Pillar" treatment pretty frequently.
So.... Who ya got?
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Post by elliott on Oct 3, 2019 13:04:07 GMT -5
Stan Hansen
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Post by elliott on Oct 3, 2019 14:24:46 GMT -5
I watched the Kobashi/Kikuchi vs Akiyama/Ogawa match from 1/24/93 last night and it is really amazing how good Jun was barely 4 months into his career. I haven't watched nearly enough of the last 2 decades of Jun's career, but if you're someone who has & thinks he's top 3 worldwide over that time span (not a unique opinion) then calling Jun the best or 2nd best of these 5 doesn't seem crazy to me. When you compare entire careers and see that Misawa & Kawada debuted in 81 & 82 it gets more interesting.
Actually. I've never really thought about it, but compared to other all time great wrestlers, Misawa & Kawada were pretty late bloomers. But they were especially late bloomers when you compare them to Kobashi & Akiyama. We always think of Misawa & Co being the "upstart youngsters" going up against grumpy old Jumbo, but Misawa was already 9 years into his career. It was 1982 in Jumbo's 9th year as a pro-wrestler for comparison. Daniel Bryan turned 20 in May of 2001.
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Post by Kadaveri on Oct 3, 2019 17:01:07 GMT -5
Kobashi.
I think on at their best, the Four Pillars were each as great as each other. But
1. Kobashi was more consistent, alongside his classics you'll find him having a bunch of 3 - 3.5 Star matches on AJPW TV with the likes of Big Boss Man, Danny Spivey and The Patriot, it's a much wider resume than Misawa or Taue by a long way, and I'd say Kawada too though it's a bit closer there.
2. Kobashi got great really quickly, dude only debuted in February 1988 and he's looking like a top-tier worker by 1990 already. I don't think Kawada or Misawa looked that great until around 7-8 years into their careers.
3. Just as he was already great early, when most people thought he was a has-been, he gave us an absolutely epic two-year title reign with such a variety of great matches. The other three's late careers can't touch that 2003-05 Kobashi run.
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Post by bossrock on Oct 3, 2019 19:13:01 GMT -5
I need to see more of Kawada's 80's work. When it comes to Misawa as Tiger Mask, he's got some pretty solid matches and the potential was always evident. But yeah it wasn't until the 90's (and even then some would argue not until '92 or so) that Misawa looked like he was potentially best in the world.
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Post by elliott on Oct 4, 2019 3:09:23 GMT -5
I need to see more of Kawada's 80's work. When it comes to Misawa as Tiger Mask, he's got some pretty solid matches and the potential was always evident. But yeah it wasn't until the 90's (and even then some would argue not until '92 or so) that Misawa looked like he was potentially best in the world. If you're looking for when Kawada had best in the world potential, you can skip the 80s. He's a perfectly fine flashy junior babyface tag wrestler who did have some great matches. Like somewhere between Bobby Fulton and Marty Jannetty. Good young worker, someone you want on your roster. Start with the Tenryu mass exodus. Those first few years of Kawada are interesting because you'd get stuff like the 91 Taue matches. But he's also making the switch from flashy junior to his more violent slow paced stiff style and its interesting to see the changes what he kept what he dropped what he altered during that change. That would be the real reason to look at his 80s stuff. To see how different he was and chart the change/progress.
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Post by tetsujin on Oct 5, 2020 17:15:27 GMT -5
Damn If I tried to do this with Cap's categories it would be quite challenging...
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Post by Cap on Oct 5, 2020 17:18:35 GMT -5
Ohhh god... That would be rough
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Post by elliott on Oct 5, 2020 18:26:31 GMT -5
Hansen still wins
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Post by elliott on Oct 5, 2020 18:27:24 GMT -5
Really though, this has to be Kobashi. Has to.
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Post by Cap on Oct 5, 2020 18:40:17 GMT -5
I still think it would be Kobashi for me, but parsing out each category among the four would be tough. I want to put off some work though so... without thinking about it or defending at all....
Top Matches - Kobashi Versatility - Kobashi Consistency - Misawa Charisma/It Factor - Kobashi Elevating Others - Misawa Offense - Kobashi Selling - Kobashi Rewatch Value - Kobashi Elliott's Bonus Question - No Clue.... but probably Kobashi
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Post by elliott on Oct 5, 2020 19:05:34 GMT -5
I would actually say Kobashi was the most consistent and Misawa by far the least consistent
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Post by Cap on Oct 5, 2020 20:06:43 GMT -5
Yeah... I was picking between them. I might think that as well. Again... without thinking.
Also.. Kawada could make a case for best seller. That is only part troll comment. He has some good selling performances.
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Post by elliott on Oct 5, 2020 20:20:01 GMT -5
Kawada was always the default best seller pick for sure
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Post by elliott on Oct 5, 2020 20:31:28 GMT -5
Misawa wasn't that great as TM2 and then when he became the Ace, he'd take nights off in tags and 6 man tags as he got more banged up (there was talk of this as far back as 1993 because those dudes were always injured even back then). Part of Kobashi's appeal was that he always worked his ass off relentlessly in every match no matter how Hurt he might have been or even sometimes to the detriment of the match. Misawa was Diana Ross to Kobashi's Springsteen
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