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Post by Cap on Nov 7, 2019 21:05:07 GMT -5
I don't know why i was thinking of this today, but it seems like an obvious question. Two of the most prominent aces of the decade as we close said decade out... who you got between Cena and Okada.
In a lot of ways this feels like two guys who couldn't be more different, but are weirdly similar to me. They both get criticized for doing too much and get praised for their storytelling. They both have some great, highly praised matches, many that wound up doing well during this project the first time. Both are big match workers.
I think if you asked me this randomly my gut response would be Okada and I think by most analytics that focus on the wrestler in a vacuum I would say he is a better wrestler. He is more physically gifted, athletic, and his execution is miles better. However, the more I think about the bigger picture, especially with regard to this project, the more I think Cena might give him a run for his money for me. I have more Cena matches on my list and and they are rated higher. I think Cena has more diversity in his great matches (though I don't think Okada is limited at all).
Obviously the NJPW and WWE settings are very different so much of this is going to boil down to personal taste obviously. I just had this pop in my head recently and it wound up being more of a thinker than I assumed it would be.
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Post by bossrock on Nov 7, 2019 22:21:28 GMT -5
This is a really tough choice for a number of reasons. The biggest is probably that Cena's career is for the most part over and we can more accurately judge his body of work whereas Okada is still relatively young in his career. For that reason, if we did the GWE tomorrow, I would rank Cena ahead just out of principle. But the more that I think about it, I don't think it's outrageous to say Okada isn't as good or even better.
Cena has impressive longevity as a big match wrestler and while he has a fair amount of lows in his career, he often had to work with far worse talent that Okada has. But that isn't to say Okada hasn't gotten good to great matches out of subpar wrestlers either (Fale, Elgin, Makabe, 2017 Cody are probably the most prominent examples). And while Cena carrying Khali to respectable and occasionally good matches is impressive, so is Okada carrying a largely immobile Tenryu who had no business wrestling to something pretty solid.
While Okada was a bit inconsistent from 2012 to 2016, I personally have his peaks higher than Cena's. While the Umaga and Bryan matches are absolute classics and two of the top five greatest WWE matches ever IMO, I've never really thought Cena had any true "classics" beyond those two. I've always found the Punk rivalry to be a tad overrated with slow starts and hot finishing stretches (ironically not all that different from modern day NJPW) aided by hot crowds. That's not to say crowds can't enhance a match, but the bell-to-bell action still needs to deliver and at times the feud left me wanting. And while the A.J. series is excellent, the over-reliance on finisher kickouts ultimately knocked those matches out of contention for my ballot. It's funny that while NJPW matches have often been criticized for a "more is more" approach, later Cena matches are arguably even bigger perpetrators. Meanwhile, the Okada-Tanahashi and Okada-Omega feuds are IMO two of the greatest in-ring rivalries of the 21st century with five matches from both feuds making my ballot.
When it comes to the strengths and weaknesses of their overall skill sets, it's surprisingly rather even. For all the criticisms thrown at Okada for a poor mat game and subpar striking (myself included), those are perhaps two of the biggest holes in Cena's game. And when it comes to offense and execution, Okada smokes him and it's not even close. And while athleticism and execution are by no means the end-all be-all (Tenryu is one of my all-time favorites whereas Orton is one of my all-time least favorites), they're both skills that should be taken into consideration when comparing the greatest wrestlers of all-time. Conversely, Cena has always had a great sense of urgency which is something Okada has always struggled with. And while I think Okada is an extremely underrated seller and Cena has been a bit too superhuman in his comebacks, Cena has always been a better limb seller.
So while at this point I would probably rank Cena ahead because we have a better perspective of his career, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Okada surpasses him down the line.
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Post by tetsujin on Nov 8, 2019 11:17:54 GMT -5
Okada is somebody who clearly peaked between 2013 and 2017, and in those years he was at levels Cena ever was. But since WK 12 I've been more and more down with Okada, as I feel he has turned into automatic pilot mode. He actually sucks and that's a shame comming from him. Considering all this, he reminds me of Randy Orton, more than Cena.
Cena is a difficult case for me. His very best matches are undeniable, but I feel the WWE formula of doing things has always limited him. Like, Cena was a guy wrestling different days every single week, and always delivering the exact same tv/house show match. He also had bullshit matches with bullshit opponents because stupid storylines. Some of his potential best work was ruined with booking. He sometimes had good and even great tv matches against better foes (Rey, Punk...), and big match John from 2005-09 delivered almost anytime (not that frequently after 2010, though). I loved his PWG mode in 2015 as it was so refreshing in the WWE product, but is not a ringwork that will survive over time. He also had bad matches with that formula even with good or great workers (the Reigns match, the last AJ matches...), but before 2016 he was fun to watch. Oh, his first years were tons of fun, but I don't know if Okada's were as good because I haven't seen those years or him.
I guess Okada is better, because his peak is a lot better in both top tier stuff and consistency, he clearly has an all time level peak that the best workers ever have, but if he keeps working the way he's working this last couple of years, Cena will win the longevity battle by far, and Cena already have the necesary top tier stuff so... It's close. Neither one of them would make a top 100 of mine right now.
Also, in non-ringwork stuff, Cena demolishes Okada without even blinking. But that's another thread I guess.
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