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Post by elliott on Dec 11, 2019 7:10:21 GMT -5
Two of the all time great Ace's whose brilliance was either forgotten or overlooked due to the genius of Mitsuharu Misawa's run as the Ace of All Japan. We all know Jumbo & Hashimoto are all time greats now, but which was better?
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Post by bossrock on Dec 11, 2019 23:31:12 GMT -5
I like both guys for very similar reasons. Basically, they brought the fire and intensity more than any other wrestler I've ever seen. Jumbo wasn't malicious like Hansen, but he would very clearly fuck you up and had no qualms about doing so (especially if you were Misawa, Kawada,or Kobashi and refused to get off his lawn). Hashimoto meanwhile would pick spots and unleash in very quick, aggressive bursts. It usually wasn't personal, but he didn't fuck around either.
When it comes to who's better, it's a case where I would take volume over peak. Jumbo has the higher peaks with 6 matches making my ballot and Hashimoto only having one. But Hashimoto has at least a decade of being great whereas pre-'86 Jumbo is not my cup of tea. Now the argument could definitely be made for Jumbo as those 6 years as the surly ace were great. I even consider him to be the star of Tenryu and Misawa matches. But a good bulk of his matches outside of those just feel "really good" instead of "classic". Hashimoto's ability to take a rather simple match structure and make it feel like a clash of epic proportions nearly every time he stepped into the ring gives him that "It" factor that I think surpasses Jumbo. I'm more likely to remember a random Hashimoto match than I am a random Jumbo match simply because of Hashimoto's charisma and presence. Combine that with having a longer period of work that I enjoy, I go Hashimoto.
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Post by elliott on Dec 14, 2019 4:23:27 GMT -5
Cap's Categories:
Top Matches – This is extraordinarily difficult. Jumbo doesn’t have the short matches Hash does (under 15 minutes) but Hash doesn’t have the long matches Jumbo does (over 25 minutes). Both guys were great as young up and comers pre Ace run and then all time great Ace runs. Both were great in singles, tag & multi man matches. Jumbo had better matches with Tenryu. Hashimoto had better matches with Choshu (except for 1/86). I don’t think they had any other similar opponents. Jumbo has a better record against gaijin, but gaijin didn’t matter as much by the time Hashimoto came around in NJPW. Hashimoto was better against martial arts specialists, but AJPW never featured guys like that.
Jumbo vs Funk, Tenryu (multiple), Flair (multiple), Martel (multiple), Race (multiple), Murdoch, Kerry, Brisco (multiple), Robinson (multiple), Slater, Mascaras, Misawa (multiple), Kobashi (mutiple), Kawada (multiple). Including tags brings in multiple matches with folks like Kikuchi, Dory Jr, Brody, Hansen, Hoffman, Choshu, Yatsu, Khan, Hara, and probably even more. It is kind of nuts.
Hashimoto vs Tenryu (multiple), Choshu (multiple), Hase (multiple), Chono (multiple) Muto (multiple), Liger, Kawada, Ogawa (multiple), Vader (multiple), Zangiev, Regal (multiple), Takada, Koshinaka, Yamazaki, Sasaki, Fujinami,. Tags & muti mans brings in Iizuka, Anjoh, Takayama, Misawa, Akiyama, Murakami, Corino, Gary Steele, Dylan Knight, Hara, Ishikawa, Bigelow, etc.
Both guys have a lot of depth, variety of opponents, settings etc. Jumbo might have more names, but is list is loaded with all time greats. Hashimoto has fewer guys with that track record so it kind of evens out.
Going with a draw.
Versatility – Another tough one because both guys excelled in a number of different settings (tags, singles, unique opponents), but I went with Jumbo because he changed his style do distinctly over time in a way Hashimoto (and most people) never really did.
Consistency – Hashimoto has less disappointing matches and certainly less tediously long disappointing matches.
Charisma/"It" Factor" – Hashimoto because he found it sooner. Jumbo eventually did but it took him a decade as a featured player.
Promos – Without speaking Japanese I’m going with Hashimoto. ☺
Elevating Others – Insert 5,000 words.
Draw.
Offense – These are two of my personal favorite offensive wrestlers ever. Hash’s DDT, brainbuster, his various kicks, chops, lariats, foot stomps, various submissions. Occasionally a powerbomb or generic suplexes. Maybe his opponents signature spot. That’s really it. Pretty limited in the context of 90s Japanese wrestling, but the way he utilized it was better than just about anyone ever. I also just love all of his moves in general. Foot stomps might be my favorite move in all of wrestling.
Jumbo on the other hand, was maybe the most diverse offensive wrestler of his era. Sort of the precursor to Misawa & Kobashi in that respect. Jumbo was arguably the best male offensive wrestler from the mid 70s-92 when he retired as a serious performer.
Selling – Hashimoto. Now I LOVE veteran Jumbo selling. Jumbo’s selling from probably the Choshu invasion on. And specifically against the new generation from 90-92 is among the best stretches ever in terms of knowing what, when, and how much to sell based on move and opponent. Genius level work. Before that he was good, but his selling didn’t stand out as much as it would later. I went with Hashimoto because I think he reached an elite level quicker.
Rewatch Valley – Hashimoto because I’d rather watch a 15 minute all time classic than a 30 minute one at this point.
Bonus Elliott's Question (Brody vs Nigel or best work associated with a crappy wrestler) – Going with Hashimoto here. He really excelled with difficult opponents like Ogawa or Zangiev or difficult settings like the Liger match. Jumbo doesn’t have anything I can think of like that 4 way match in front of 35 people with Corino, Gary Steele & Dylan Knight.
Hashimoto - 5
Jumbo - 2
Draw – 2
Hash takes the categories again this is much closer than it looks just based on that. This was a tough one.
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