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Post by Cap on Feb 12, 2020 19:59:35 GMT -5
I wanted to dedicate one of the pairings to "title matches". So, I chose one of the all time classic lucha title matches and one of the more universally praised world title matches in the modern era. On paper they are very different, but at their core they are stand out versions of two men going for the top prize in their respective promotions/styles/eras. Round 1 - Match 3El Satanico vs Gran Cochise (NWA Middleweight Title – 9/14/1984)
vs
Katsuyori Shibata vs Kazuchika Okada (IWGP HW Title – 4/9/2017)
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Post by elliott on Feb 13, 2020 2:09:21 GMT -5
I voted for Satanico vs Cochise, so you can just move Okada/Shibata on to the next round.
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Post by Cap on Feb 13, 2020 7:08:41 GMT -5
You have have be the Drake of this tournament.
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Post by jetlag on Feb 13, 2020 12:42:57 GMT -5
I also picked Satanico/Cochisse. That is something I consider the very pinnacle of the style, while Shibata/Okada is more of a fun occurance but not a blip on the radar when it comes to all time great japanese heavyweight slugfests.
My review of Shibs/Okada at the time:
Liked this a lot, mostly for Shibata putting an intensily violent beating on Okada. Shibata is a weird wrestler who looks like the heir to the Tenryu/Kawada type japanese wrestlers and then decides to work like a US indy trained monkey, but he got that stuff out of the way early and concentrated on stomping Okada to a pulp. This had the usual NJPW diseases, so you had the somewhat choreographed opening, loooong middle portion with the stupid elbow exchanges, sometimes random transitions and "hit a move, then wander around" Dragon Gate shit, but Shibata's general disdain was entertaining enough and the brutal ending moments were some real japanese wrestling. Shibata had all these cool moments here he unleashes his fury and basically tries to make a man out of Okada. I also like how he worked the overly long submission nearfalls. I didn't really like how Okada just absorbed everything Shibata had, but atleast he had the decency not to get overly cute with his comebacks. I agree about all the rainmaker spots being great, as it really seemed Okada was so beaten up he had no hitting power. I also loved the spot where Shibata teases the "finisher steal" and just slaps Okada like a bitch. I guess for such a long match this was indeed great.
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Post by KB8 on Feb 13, 2020 14:19:08 GMT -5
I didn't hate Shibata/Okada when I tried to watch it last year, but I really couldn't be bothered finishing it the two times I tried. I'm also not even as huge a fan of Satanico/Cochisse as most are, but it's pretty clearly great. Naturally it's way more my thing stylistically as well.
I wasn't going to vote on this as I've technically only seen about half of one of the matches, but to hell with it. Fire me if you want!
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Post by Cap on Feb 13, 2020 15:36:28 GMT -5
I also picked Cochise vs Satanico. It isn't quite as close as the last two for me, but it is closer for me than most who have commented here. I very much enjoy NJPW, but I am not one who maxes out the star rating for every okada title match. In fact, I think for the most part, I would count myself generally low on him and the NJPW style (maybe not here, but more broadly). That said, I think this match was singular in his run. Shibata brought something out of Okada. It was subtle, but this match sold me on Okada as tougher than I had thought. It blended the strong style with the pro style beautifully, which is not always the case. Shibata doming himself simultaneously makes me not want to watch this match and makes me want to watch it that much more. The final match of an absolutely incredible wrestler who went too hard and quite literally left it all in the ring. I think this accomplishes what a lot of NJPW title matches (or matches in general don't). It has teeth and a grittiness to it and it stands out in the sea of big moves and long drawn out drama.... but it does so without really veering too far from the style. That is impressive.
All that said, Satanico vs Cochise is better.
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Post by elliott on Feb 13, 2020 18:52:40 GMT -5
I didn't hate Shibata/Okada when I tried to watch it last year, but I really couldn't be bothered finishing it the two times I tried. I always run into this problem with modern NJPW. I'll sit down and decide "ok, I'm gonna give match X a real shot. Everyone is saying its an all time classic." And then 20min will go by and I'm like "I can't take another second of this bullshit." I will happily yell at the clouds.
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Post by bossrock on Feb 13, 2020 19:18:01 GMT -5
Okada-Shibata for me and when we voted it made my top 10. Finest performance of both men's careers and while a great deal of that is due to the violence and intensity, it's the character work of Okada leaning into the heel role as the prodigy turned ace while Shibata, the sentimental favorite, went from being pegged as one of the three musketeers to finally earning his first world title shot. And the story is really quite brilliant too with Okada trying to beat Shibata at his own game, failing, finding some rhythm with his normal strategy, but constantly finding himself being pulled into a firefight. But Shibata gets so caught up in punishing Okada he fails to seal the deal and that's what gives Okada his opening to win.
I think I've watched Satanico-Cochise once. It was well-worked but I've come to terms with the fact that the technical, lucha title match is just not my thing. Give me a bloody Satanico brawl any day of the week.
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Post by KB8 on Feb 14, 2020 5:22:06 GMT -5
I didn't hate Shibata/Okada when I tried to watch it last year, but I really couldn't be bothered finishing it the two times I tried. I always run into this problem with modern NJPW. I'll sit down and decide "ok, I'm gonna give match X a real shot. Everyone is saying its an all time classic." And then 20min will go by and I'm like "I can't take another second of this bullshit." I will happily yell at the clouds. This is where I'm at for the most part as well. It's not that I end up regretting sitting down and watching every modern New Japan match that I do give a shot, it's just that I'm often left cold because a lot of it clearly isn't my thing. Some of it has been alright, some of it pretty enjoyable and there'll be a match here and there I think is really good. But I only really have so much time these days to dedicate to a stupid hobby like this and I'd rather use it watching something that I know has a better chance of actually being enjoyable based on my preferences.
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Post by elliott on Feb 14, 2020 16:50:48 GMT -5
Totally agree 100%.
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Post by Cap on Feb 19, 2020 14:21:56 GMT -5
Looks like a win for Satanico vs Cochise!
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