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Post by Cap on Mar 27, 2020 7:23:20 GMT -5
Thoughts?
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Post by elliott on Mar 28, 2020 5:04:08 GMT -5
I was messing around recently and did a quick rough draft of a Greatest Wrestler Ever list and I literally had these two at 11 (Flair) and 12 (Hokuto). Will talk more about this match-up later, but I thought that was pretty funny.
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Post by bossrock on Mar 28, 2020 20:32:56 GMT -5
I also have Flair at 11 but Hokuto at 17.
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Post by elliott on Mar 29, 2020 1:22:02 GMT -5
Cool! Who else is in your top 25?
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Post by bossrock on Mar 29, 2020 7:10:26 GMT -5
My way too rough draft (maybe this can be its own thread):
Kenta Kobashi
Mitsuharu Misawa
Toshiaki Kawada
Genichiro Tenryu
Stan Hansen
Daniel Bryan
Jun Akiyama
Akira Taue
Jushin Liger
Rey Mysterio
Ric Flair
Terry Funk
A.J. Styles
Shinya Hashimoto
Hiroshi Tanahashi
Aja Kong
Akira Hokuto
Carlos Colon
Shinjiro Otani
Jumbo Tsuruta
El Satanico
Negro Casas
Vader
Ricky Steamboat
Eddie Guerrero
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Post by elliott on Mar 29, 2020 15:05:10 GMT -5
An interesting one because on the surface it looks like Peak vs Longevity. But its really Peak vs Peak. Flair's was just substantially longer.
Cap's Categories:
Top Matches - Draw. If its literally top 2 matches, Hokuto takes this. If you go to top 5 or more matches, Flair starts to pick up steam quickly. I'm cheating and going Draw here because this is more about your very best matches than your 8th, 9th, 10th best.
Versatility - Hokuto. Flair is more versatile than he is given credit for. But I see Hokuto as one of those people who can just do anything in the ring and she had broader range than Flair.
Consistency - Flair. I'm really tempted to call it a draw or give it to Hokuto because of Flair's post 1996 career. But Flair's late 70s-mid 90s run of being awesome is longer than Hokuto's entire career. So it seems silly to pick someone else. Hokuto also missed a lot of time in her career so I feel a little better about picking Flair even though Hokuto was always good usually great and never had a terrible decade like Flair.
Charisma/"It" Factor" - Hokuto. Really.
Promos - Doesn't count. But I will note that Hokuto is someone who I've usually watch do post-match promo's even though I don't speak the language because she is so compelling.
Elevating Others - Flair. This is Flair's greatest strength.
Offense - Hokuto. Seems self-evident. Hokuto is on the Kobashi level offensively.
Selling - Hokuto.
Rewatch Valley - Flair. I'm as surprised as you. I would have answered Hokuto at any time over the past 20+ years. But I've revisited/seen for the first time a bunch of Flair over the past couple years and I have been pleasantly surprised how much I enjoy his work again. Now, I've watched DreamSlam & Queendom at least once a year for the last 20+ year and thought they were two of the 3 or 4 best matches ever for that entire time. So there's something to that. They're basically Godfather I & II of wrestling for me at this point. I don't have anything like that with Flair. But there's more depth and more undiscovered Flair matches out there. I had never seen Flair vs Ron Garvin cage match 3/30/86 until recently and I think that is an all time great match. There's nothing like that with Hokuto unless we suddenly get a bunch of handheld footage we didn't previously know existed.
Bonus Elliott's Question (Brody vs Nigel or best work associated with a crappy wrestler)
Flair. I guess Rumi Kazama had a bad worker rep, but its not like having to go 45 minutes with 1988 Sting on national television against a WrestleMania
Flair - 4
Hokuto - 4
Draw - 1
Excellent.
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Post by Cap on May 27, 2020 19:15:20 GMT -5
Top MatchesThis is going to be tough. Hokuto has my #1 match overall. She has 3 matches more or less locked into my top 100. Flair has my #6 overall and has more or less 3 matches locked into my top 100. Hokuto has a 4th on the list now but it could fall. Flair has at least two that could make it back on. I think I am going to call it a draw. Winner: Draw VersatilityThis is another razor close one for me. Flair gets unfairly criticized for being one dimensional because a lot of his most praised work comes when he was the traveling ace working similar types of matches. If you look at his career more broadly though I think he showed a lot of range. It wasn’t always a hit, but Flair could brawl, grapple, and do comedy. He could obviously do tags and singles, but he is also one of the center pieces of probably the greatest royal rumble of all time (a match that I often enjoy but rarely find great). He could obviously sell, but his top work was great too. He also could work heel and face. Hokuto could essentially all that. Maybe she didn’t have a shining royal rumble to her credit, but I think she shows more consistent range on the whole. I’m going to give this to Hokuto because I think she thrived in more contexts and roles, where Flair sometimes survived through versatility. Winner: Hokuto ConsistencyFlair was money in the bank more often than not in the early and middle parts of his career. Hokuto probably only loses this category because of her injury history, but lose it she does. Winner: Flair Charisma/”It” FactorFuck… another tough one. I am going to fudge my own system a bit. I am going to give Hokuto this category because she got her charisma over to me without me understanding Japanese. Flair is going to get an advantage for being one of the best English speaking promos ever in just a second, so Hokuto can get this nod. Winner: Hokuto PromosSee Above… Flair Winner: Flair Elevating OthersMight not be anyone better at this than Flair. He could make stars and if he couldn’t he could eat least polish turds for a night. Winner: Flair OffenseHokuto is an offensive powerhouse. Flair’s offense might be a bit underrated on the whole, but he isn’t going to top Hokuto here. Winner: Hokuto Selling Really close one. I think I have to call this a draw. Both of them are top shelf shellers. Flair is one of the few male wrestlers who might yell as much as a 90s joshi worker. Winner: Draw Rewatch Value Ohhh man… These are two of my top rewatch-value wrestlers. I think at this moment I am going to take Flair. I think if I could only watch one forever it would be him. That could literarlly change tomorrow. Winner: Flair Elliott’s Bonus Question (Brody/Nigel or Best Work Associated With a Bad Wrestler)Flair… right? He was even saddled with lesser workers really really late in his career. Working with green as grass Batista stands out. I like Batista on the whole, but tagging with him when he did was a real feather in Flair’s cap. Winner: Flair
Final Score Flair - 4.5 Hokuto - 3
Draw - 2
This could be even closer than it looks, honestly. A few of these categories could have gone to draws and both draws were leaning slightly towards Hokuto. Almost every category was close.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 11:48:38 GMT -5
Naitch v Dangerous Queen
Top Matches
Hokuto has two matches in my top ten, and Flair has a bunch that come pretty damn close to that. Akira takes this one.
WINNER: Hokuto
Versatility
No, Flair did not just wrestle the same match over and over. Tenryu 9/15/92 was not Funk GAB 89 was not Dory/Patera v Ric/Blackwell (ok weird example but I haven't seen much of Flair's tag work). But whenever I watch a Flair match for the first time, I am waiting for the flop or the begging off spot or the over-the-turnbuckle-run-the-ropes-get-smashed spot. Hey, the guy worked 300 nights a year, Michelin-starred chefs crank out thousands of identical plates of food a year cos that WORKS. Akira had great range too and I'm not waiting for her to get her shit in. Akira takes another.
WINNER: Hokuto
Consistency
Prime Flair was one of the most consistent workers ever. Ric pulls one back.
WINNER: Flair
Charisma/ It Factor
Flair's promos/matches against Morton are some of the most charismatic heel performances ever. Add that to a tonne of others and this category would be a cakewalk against pretty much anyone...but DANGEROUS QUEEN baybee! A U R A! Akira takes this by a whisker.
WINNER: Hokuto
Promos
If you want a vision of a perfect future, imagine AI Ric Flair and AI Terry Funk trading insults...forever.
WINNER: Flair
Elevating Others
Flair is the GOAT when it comes to making others look great.
WINNER: Flair
Offence
Hokuto crushed people at the top of her game, while there are few sights better than a knife-edge chop making Terry Funk throw hands at the ghosts of his enemies. Akira takes it.
WINNER: Hokuto
Selling
Two top-tier sellers, but I think Flair comes out ahead.
WINNER: Flair
Rewatch Value
Hours of stuff from both that I come back to time and time again. Flair takes this for there being more great stuff to rewatch.
WINNER: Flair
Brody/Nigel Question
Flair probably carried more broomsticks than any other US worker bar Lawler.
WINNER: Flair
Flair 6-4 Hokuto (5-4 if you discount promos)
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Post by Cap on Feb 6, 2023 12:50:20 GMT -5
I think my opinion on this one has changed, so I thought I'd go through it again.
Top MatchesI still think this one is close, but my opinion on Hokuto's best matches has gone up and my opinion on Flairs have gone down a touch. It might be a lifetime of seeing Flair's best and being told it is the absolute best vs the still feeling like I'm understanding Hokuto's greatness and her highest highs. I think I'd have to give this one to Hokuto at this point in time. Winner: Hokuto VersatilityI think this one still goes to Hokuto for me, but it is pretty close. Not much else to it. I think both are almost deceptively versatile, but I just think Hokuto shows a bit more in ring range. Winner: Hokuto ConsistencyStill going Flair on this one one. It feels like he built a career around being consistent. Hokuto loses through no real fault of her own. Winner: Flair Charisma/”It” FactorGoing to also keep these next two categories the same. Hokuto's physical charisma is off the charts. I'll give Flair the promos so they can sort of split the Charisma factor. Winner: Hokuto PromosSee Above… Flair Winner: Flair Elevating OthersI feel like if I had a fuller picture of Hokuto's career (like those doing the watch parties regularly), I might call this a draw, but for now I'll give it to flair (maybe there aren't that many changes. Winner: Flair OffenseHokuto still takes this because she would win this category against most folks. Winner: Hokuto SellingGotta keep this one a draw. Thy sell in different ways, but I think they are compatible. Winner: Draw Rewatch ValueI'm going to switch this one to Hokuto. Again, maybe it is an in the moment thing, but if I'm turning one of these two wrestlers on right now, it is probably Hokuto. Winner: Hokuto. Elliott’s Bonus Question (Brody/Nigel or Best Work Associated With a Bad Wrestler) I'm assuming it has to be Flair still. Winner: Flair Final Score Hokuto - 5 Flair - 3.5 Draw - 1 |
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