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Post by elliott on Apr 28, 2020 3:36:36 GMT -5
Oh...I absolutely don't think we should do it that way. 100 is fine
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Post by nintendologic on May 4, 2020 14:58:17 GMT -5
I've been doing some thinking. When you consider how many matches we have to evaluate for a project like this, simply making it onto a ballot should be meaningful. But it stands to reason that the longer a ballot is, the less value the lower placements have. When a ballot is 100 deep, listing a match in the bottom 10 is virtually tantamount to leaving it off entirely. Given that, and I'm just spitballing here, it might be a better idea to have people submit ballots of 50 and put together an overall top 100 from them.
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Post by gramsci on May 6, 2020 6:08:16 GMT -5
I've been doing some thinking. When you consider how many matches we have to evaluate for a project like this, simply making it onto a ballot should be meaningful. But it stands to reason that the longer a ballot is, the less value the lower placements have. When a ballot is 100 deep, listing a match in the bottom 10 is virtually tantamount to leaving it off entirely. Given that, and I'm just spitballing here, it might be a better idea to have people submit ballots of 50 and put together an overall top 100 from them. I'm not an active poster so my opinion shouldn't count much, but I completely agree with what nintendologic says. I remember doing like a 100 greatest matches of all time like 7 or 8 years ago in another forum, and the conclusion of it was that the spots between 50 to 100 didn't mean as much as the top 50. It was more an exercice to fill the list, and for exemple, in that case a match in the spot #62 could be positioned also in the spot #87 or get outside of the list. I think that a TOP 50 is more focused and tight, and I'm talking about my personal case, but right now I'm more or less satisfied with my Top 30 or Top 40, but I don't know how to classify matches from the #50 spot to the bottom of the list. Maybe a TOP 50 plus 50 honorauble mentions or something like that could work, I don't know. I remember ending burn out watching wrestling, and I haven't rewatched most of those matches until now, during the lockdown, and I find myself enjoying trying to put a Top 25 o 50 of what I consider the best matches of all time, but I'm not sure I can put together a top 100 with wich I can feel 100% satisfied. But, as I said, it might be a personal feeling and nothing else.
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Post by Cap on May 12, 2020 18:19:40 GMT -5
I am also interested in this idea. It would probably make calculating votes a lot easier as well.
Where do others come down on doing a top 25 or 50 this year? It would benefit from a decent turnout. I think any changes are sort of dependent on that. I'll start a thread to see if we can get an informal count on who is in.
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Post by elliott on May 29, 2020 2:28:55 GMT -5
25 isn't enough. I would compromise with 50, but honestly still not be thrilled with that choice vs a top 100. The one thing I've learned doing this project more than anything else is that the match I have ranked 68th or 82nd or 99th is a fucking amazing match that I love and would absolutely strongly encourage people to watch. If someone said "recommend me one thousand great pro wrestling matches" I could easily do it and have matches left over that I would say "hey when you're done with those 1000, here are some more." So I get it that making a top 100 list is hard and its hard to describe why a match is 77th instead of 76th and we'll never be satisfied. But that's why we decided to do a list every year. Because we'll never be satisfied with our top 100s. New stuff will happen or we'll see some old match for the first time or it'll resonate a new way and we'll want to recognize it. So when I look at someone's top 100 matches of all time and I've never seen their 88th ranked match I dont just ignore it. I think "Oh FUCK 88TH MATCH EVER IS MUST WATCH." I might disagree with the quality but I think just making a top 100 list is meaningful. If we're going to do a top 25 I don't really see the point. I can release those results right now: 23 Kenta Kobashi matches DreamSLam 1 Whatever JCP match I end up putting #1 is 25th.
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Post by pterois on May 29, 2020 10:16:03 GMT -5
I agree with Elliott.
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Post by Cap on May 29, 2020 11:28:47 GMT -5
I also agree with Elliott I think we could submit a top 50 if that is preferable and more attractive to people, but still produce a collaborative top 100.
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Post by changoxtreme1982 on May 29, 2020 12:48:28 GMT -5
Yeah, I'll have all of the matches you've listed other than Yokota vs Asuka. The only thing that jumps out at me that should definitely be included is Dump vs Yukari Ohmori 3/20/86. That's the only match I see as a stone cold lock that's missing. There are some other things I want to revisit though because I see them as pretty strong candidates including: Crush Gals vs Lola Gonzalez & Tarantula 10/6/84 Jaguar Yokota vs La Galactica 2/27/85 Jaguar Yokota vs Pantera Suerena (Mexico City) 5/12/85 Jumping Bomb Angels vs Dump & Bull 8/22/85 Chigusa Nagayo vs Yukari Ohmori 6/22/86 Chigusa vs Lioness 2/26/87 Chigusa vs Devil Masami 4/15/87 Crush Gals vs Jumping Bomb Angels 9/14/87 Marine Wolves vs Bison Kimura & Grizzly Iwamoto 6/18/89 I would really love to once again watch that classic between Jaguar Yokota vs Pantera Surena.
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Post by superstarsleeze on May 30, 2020 21:36:54 GMT -5
25 isn't enough. I would compromise with 50, but honestly still not be thrilled with that choice vs a top 100. The one thing I've learned doing this project more than anything else is that the match I have ranked 68th or 82nd or 99th is a fucking amazing match that I love and would absolutely strongly encourage people to watch. If someone said "recommend me one thousand great pro wrestling matches" I could easily do it and have matches left over that I would say "hey when you're done with those 1000, here are some more." So I get it that making a top 100 list is hard and its hard to describe why a match is 77th instead of 76th and we'll never be satisfied. But that's why we decided to do a list every year. Because we'll never be satisfied with our top 100s. New stuff will happen or we'll see some old match for the first time or it'll resonate a new way and we'll want to recognize it. So when I look at someone's top 100 matches of all time and I've never seen their 88th ranked match I dont just ignore it. I think "Oh FUCK 88TH MATCH EVER IS MUST WATCH." I might disagree with the quality but I think just making a top 100 list is meaningful. If we're going to do a top 25 I don't really see the point. I can release those results right now: 23 Kenta Kobashi matches DreamSLam 1 Whatever JCP match I end up putting #1 is 25th. Well there is a reason Kenta Kobashi is the GOAT, brutha I agree with Elliot. At the time, of last year's ballot, I had watched, reviewed and rated a little under 2000 matches and now I am well above that. So when I say something is a Top 100 match, that is in the Top 5 percentile of what I have rated. Yes, as he said 76 vs 77 is splitting hairs, but 76 is fucking awesome and it is different than 150. Also a top 50 just shifts the problem to now #40-50 wont matter as much. For the star ratings people, my list as comprised of completely ***** and ****3/4 matches. I am not just filling out a bottom 10 with filler; I am working really hard at it. A Top 50, I think it would really hurt the honorable mentions section of the list, which is really quite useful and may be actually be the best result of the project. I honestly did think Flair vs Morton is the best match ever and I think Elliot had an unusual pick too (Valentine vs Piper was it?) and maybe some others did, but I think we all know that All Japan was going to win overall and that it was either Bret vs Austin or Flair vs Steamboat for the top spot in US history. I think that will happen in perpetuity but that does NOT defeat the point of the list. The interesting thing is finding out that fxnj has Tenryu vs Araya at #99 on his list meaning that it made it to #487 overall. Guess what it is fucking badass, chair-throwing brawl that rules so fucking hard. I wont have it in my Top 100, but I got a helluva lot of enjoyment out of it. That's the win of this project. Every year someone will uncover a new, weird hidden gem. A Top 50 will hurt diversity and lead to the usual suspects getting recognition. I think we have to decide what the objective of the list. Is it to determine the Greatest Match of All Time OR is it to produce a list of matches that our community loves to promote more watching of pro wrestling? For me the latter is more important. What I love about this community is the fact that at ~2000 matches watched and reviewed, I am probably below the mean. You all watch so much wrestling that has influenced your opinions in really cool ways and opened my eyes to so much more wrestling. I wouldnt be the wrestling fan I am today without each of you. I dont need someone telling me to watch Misawa vs Kawada, but the fact Shodate ranked Inoki vs Fujinami at 78 means something to me. I dont even think that made the NJPW DVDVR set. I havent watched it yet but it is on the list to watch and it wouldnt be if it was not for Shodate. I think that's beauty of this is to promote hidden wrestling to ourselves and hopefully the wrestling world at large. I do think that argument that this is too much work for Cap is reasonable. This is a hobby and should be fun. If it is too overwhelming. I am cool with a Top 50. Or maybe we can do a Top 50 for points to make Cap's life easier and then everyone can post 50 honorable mentions so that way I can take notes on what to watch.
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Post by Cap on Jun 1, 2020 15:06:33 GMT -5
To be fair, I had lots of help in the calculating of the last ballot (and hopefully will again). It is a decent amount of work and maybe we can even make things easier, but I am not pulling the weight alone by any means.
Let me ask you this. If we submit a top 50, what is stopping us from still having a final top 100 that is still meaningful? Last year we had almost 500 matches receiving votes. Sure that comes down somewhat, but I sort of suspect we still wind up with a good top 100. That isn't me saying we should definately go with 50. I am just wondering if people see this as too limiting?
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Post by pterois on Jun 1, 2020 20:22:06 GMT -5
If it is too much work for you, ask for help.
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Post by bossrock on Jun 1, 2020 20:29:44 GMT -5
If it is too much work for you, ask for help. All of the moderators assisted with tallying points and totals. It was a pretty quick process so I don't think lack of assistance is an issue. I say if we are debating whether or not a top 50 is enough, we go all the way with a top 100 again.
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Post by Cap on Jun 2, 2020 7:51:07 GMT -5
Yeah... Maybe I wasn't clear. I am not wanting for help. Everyone pitches in and it isn't that challenging. I am more just exploring options.
I am ok with going with a top 100 again. Just wanted to ask because there were some people losing interest in a top 100.
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