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Post by gramsci on May 15, 2020 6:30:05 GMT -5
Hey, if you allow me I'm going to use this thread to build my list.
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Post by Cap on May 15, 2020 16:44:59 GMT -5
Absolutely. This is the place to work through your list and matches in whatever way you want.
However, you are criminally low on those first two Han/Tamura matches, esp. the first. haha
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Post by gramsci on May 17, 2020 7:06:18 GMT -5
Hahah since I started training in BJJ, I watch shoot style matces with a different point of view, maybe it's beacuse of that, I don't know. In the first Tamura vs Han there were some moments that bothered me, I counted 5 or 6 times where one or the other had their rival completely overcome and they did not take any advantage of it.
Anyway, I don't know how to use de rating star system, so a ****1/4 match it's considered for me as one of the best matches of all time. Those marked in bold are the 5 star matches.
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Post by fxnj on May 19, 2020 21:30:51 GMT -5
A lot of guys here do (or have done) BJJ. Han and Tamura were two world-class fighters at the time who meticulously thought out their matches, so I think it's a bit much to refer to the fact that they weren't more aggressive in taking each others' backs as "mistakes." It's just the style they were going for. I actually did notice one spot where Tamura tried going for Han's back and just got caught in a toehold for his trouble, so the idea that "back=instant win" simply wasn't part of the match's psychology. I also don't find those moments nearly as egregious as you, as you still always saw them trying to go for other submissions and the one on the defense was always trying to fight things off.
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Post by gramsci on May 20, 2020 3:28:16 GMT -5
That's the main problem for me in this match, they are two world-class fighters and for me, the principal psychology in any match is that you are trying to win the fight. I know that taking the opponent's back wasn't the story of the match, but they did it during the match, several times, and they weren't even trying to finish the match that way. I'm not saying that taking your rival's back it's an instant win, but when you do you try to finish things off, or at least put your rival on the "backpack" while the other struggles to get out.
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Post by Cap on May 20, 2020 7:50:07 GMT -5
I actually got into shoot wrestling after I started training in bjj, but I think it made the style infinitely more interesting to me. I am more on the side of fxnj on this. To me, they grappled more like two elite grapplers who would bide their time here and there because there was a counter waiting for them that they could see but the onlooker couldn't. I am often more frustrated by when someone has a submission locked in dead to rights, but that isn't the end because their opponent is able to hold on without having sustaining catastrophic damage to a joint, but again, its a game of inches, especially at those elite levels I think that is element of grappling they are leaning into hard. In all their matches, they also kept the level of tension such you felt that a match could end at any moment. Between that and the fact that it is wrestling - so everything has to be slowed and spaced out a little for the benefit of the audience - I really don't find fault in the way they approached much in terms of submissions or back takes.
I think another point to keep in mind is that back control doesn't really lend itself to impressive and/or quick counters. That isn't to say there aren't any, but it isn't the same as saddle, side control, guard, or half guard where most great shoot matches are more likely to spend their time. Back control is just not as big an element of shoot wrestling as perhaps actual grappling (at least in my experience). It is a spot people will transition into, but I suspect they move out of because the position isn't quite the crowd pleaser.
It's a good critique though. I have my own hang-ups on certain shoot matches and spots that are definitely born of actually grappling (which I miss so much right now).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2020 23:48:58 GMT -5
Top list gramsci, will comb through this when I get a chance
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Post by gramsci on Nov 20, 2021 17:16:06 GMT -5
Today I submitted my list, I am not fully satisfied with it but here it is:
1. Holy Demon Army vs. Kenta Kobashi & Mitsuharu Misawa (AJPW - 6/9/1995)
2. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Yoshihisa Yamamoto (RINGS - 6/24/1999)
3. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (RINGS - 6/27/1998)
4. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (AJPW - 1/20/1997)
5. El Hijo del Santo vs. Negro Casas (CMLL - 9/19/1997)
6. Shinobu Kandori vs. Yumiko Hotta (LLPW 3/31/1998)
7. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Volk Han (RINGS - 9/26/1997)
8. Bryan Danielson vs. Kenny Omega (AEW - 9/22/2021)
9. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Josh Barnett (U-Style - 11/23/2005)
10. Sangre Chicana vs. MS-1 (EMLL - 9/23/1983)
11. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs. Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas (AJPW - 5/25/1992)
12. Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (AJPW - 5/26/2000)
13. Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori (AJW - 4/2/1993)
14. Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Mysterio Jr (WCW - 10/26/1997)
15. Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega (NJPW - 8/12/2017)
16. El Hijo del Santo vs. Negro Casas vs. El Dandy (CMLL - 12/6/1996)
17. Jumbo Tsaruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (AJPW - 1/28/1986)
18. Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi (AJPW - 7/29/1993)
19. Yuki Ishikawa vs. Carl Greco (BattlArts - 6/1/2008)
20. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW - 6/3/1994)
21. Akira Hokuto & Shinobu Kandori vs. Aja Kong & Bull Nakano (AJW – 3/27/1994)
22. Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega (NJPW - 6/9/2018)
23. Takeshi Morishima vs. Bryan Danielson (ROH 8/25/2007)
24. Brock Lesnar vs. John Cena (WWE - 4/29/2012)
25. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (AJPW - 6/5/1989)
26. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Volk Han (RINGS - 1/22/1997)
27. Greg Valentine vs. Roddy Piper (NWA - 11/24/1983)
28. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jun Akiyama (AJPW - 2/27/2000)
29. Eddie Guerrero vs. John Bradshaw Layfield (WWE - 5/16/2004)
30. Minoru Suzuki vs. Naoki Sano (PWFG - 7/26/1991)
31. Jon Moxley vs. Josh Barnett (GCW - 4/8/2021)
32. Eddie Kingston vs. Bryan Danielson (AEW - 10/29/2021)
33. Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee (CWA - 6/6/1983)
34. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (WCW - 11/15/1989)
35. La Parka vs. El Hijo del Santo (Monterrey - 12/23/2001)
36. Blue Demon Jr vs. Dr Wagner Jr (AAA - 8/3/2019)
37. Terry Funk vs. Jerry Lawler (CWA - 3/23/1981)
38. Atlantis vs. Villano III (CMLL - 3/17/2000)
39. Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Hiromitsu Kanehara (Kingdom - 12/2/1997)
40. Kazuchika Okada vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi (NJPW - 4/7/2013)
41. Akira Maeda vs. Tatsumi Fujinami (NJPW - 6/12/1986)
42. Walter vs. Darby Allin (EVOLVE - 6/23/2018)
43. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW - 12/16/1988)
44. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Super Vader (UWFi - 6/10/1994)
45. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Dokonjonosuke Mishima (U-Style - 4/6/2003)
46. Jerry Lawler vs. Austin Idol (CWA - 4/27/1987)
47. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Minoru Suzuki (NJPW - 10/8/2012)
48. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW - 7/24/1995)
49. Negro Casas & El Hijo del Santo vs. Scorpio Jr & Bestia Salvaje (CMLL - 3/19/1999)
50. Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama (AJPW - 7/24/1998)
51. CM Punk vs. Eddie Kingston (AEW - 11/13/2021)
52. Team ROH (Ace Steel, Adam Pearce, BJ Whitmer, Bryan Danielson, Homicide, & Samoa Joe) vs. Team CZW (Chris Hero, Claudio Castagnoli, Eddie Kingston, Nate Webb, & Necro Butcher) (ROH - 7/15/2006)
53. Yuki Ishikawa & Alexanxer Otsuka vs. Daisuke Ikeda & Takeshi Ono (BattlARTS 10/30/1996)
54. Bryan Danielson vs. Low Ki (ROH - 3/30/2002)
55. Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH - 4/25/2004)
56. Jushin Liger vs. Naoki Sano (NJPW - 8/10/1989)
57. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (JCP - 7/5/1986)
58. Stan Hansen vs. Carlos Colón (CWP - 1/6/1987)
59. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW - 12/3/1993)
60. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (U-Style - 2/4/2004)
61. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Hiroyuki Ito (U-Style - 8/18/2004)
62. Wayne Shamrock vs. Naoki Sano (PWFG - 5/19/1991)
63. El Hijo del Santo & Eddy Guerrero vs. Blue Panther & Negro Casas (Juárez - 1987)
64. Bull Nakano vs. Shinobu Kandori (LLPW - 7/14/1994)
65. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Nobuhiko Takada (NJPW - 4/29/1996)
66. Negro Casas vs. Blue Panther (CMLL - 3/2/2012)
67. Genichiro Tenryu & Koki Kitahara vs. Kengo Kimura & Shiro Koshinaka (NJPW - 10/23/1992)
68. El Dandy vs. Angel Azteca (EMLL - 6/1/1990)
69. Yuki Ishikawa vs. Daisuke Ikeda (Futen - 4/24/2005)
70. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (WWF - 3/23/1997)
71. Samoa Joe vs. Necro Butcher (IWA Mid-South - 6/11/2005)
72. Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs. Riki Choshu (NJPW - 9/6/1987)
73. Alexander Otsuka vs. Mitsuhiro Matsunaga (BattleArts - 11/9/1999)
74. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (AJPW - 10/19/1990)
75. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Mikhail Ilioukhine (RINGS - 1/21/1998)
76. Brock Lesnar vs. Daniel Bryan (WWE - 11/18/2018)
77. Aja Kong vs. Yumiko Hotta (AJW - 1/24/1994)
78. Aja Kong vs. KAORU (GAEA - 2/13/2000)
79. Terry Funk vs. Harley Race (NWA - 7/1/1977)
80. Stan Hansen vs. Andre the Giant (NJPW - 9/23/1981)
81. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Yoji Anjoh (UWFi - 7/3/1991)
82. Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi (AJPW - 4/16/1993)
83. Katsuyori Shibata vs. Kazuchika Okada (NJPW - 4/9/2017)
84. Masakatsu Funaki vs. Tatsuo Nakano (UWF - 7/24/1989)
85. Vader vs. Antonio Inoki (NJPW - 1/4/1996)
86. Terry Funk vs. Stan Hansen (AJPW - 4/14/1983)
87. El Hijo del Santo & Octagon vs. Eddy Guerrero & Love Machine Art Barr (AAA - 11/6/1994)
88. El Hijo del Santo vs. Brazo de Oro (UWA - 1/13/1991)
89. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Genichiro Tenryu (NJPW - 2/17/1994)
90. Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuinness (ROH - 11/22/2008)
91. Genichiro Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa vs. Riki Choshu & Shinya Hashimoto (WAR 2/4/1993)
92. Volk Han vs. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (RINGS - 7/16/1996)
93. Satánico vs. Sangre Chicana (EMLL - 5/26/1989)
94. Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA (NWA - 11/28/1985)
95. Naoki Sano vs. Yoji Anjoh (UWFi - 8/13/1993)
96. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue (AJPW - 4/15/1995)
97. The Destroyer vs. Giant Baba (JWA - 3/5/1969)
98. Sangre Chicana vs. Perro Aguayo (EMLL - 2/28/1986)
99. Octagon, Rey Misterio Jr & El Hijo del Santo vs. Blue Panther, Psicosis & Fuerza Guerrera (AAA - 3/16/1995)
100. Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori (AJW - 12/6/1993)
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Post by [Darren] on Nov 20, 2021 20:03:30 GMT -5
Great list. I like seeing the 2021 matches doing so well. Vader/Inoki is a match that just missed my cut that I wish I had’ve found room for.
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Post by gramsci on Nov 21, 2021 8:27:35 GMT -5
Thanks! Right now 2021 is my favourite year as a wrestling fan!
Danielson/Omega felt like a workrate Rock/Hogan with that atmosphere and the symbolic meaning that it had. I think it is a historical moment that will be more valued over the years.
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Post by [Darren] on Nov 21, 2021 12:20:02 GMT -5
1997 was my favorite year. 2021 has definitely been up there. And that’s with only watching AEW and a handful of other matches.
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Post by Cap on Nov 23, 2021 9:02:19 GMT -5
8. Bryan Danielson vs. Kenny Omega (AEW - 9/22/2021)
WOW... Monster rating for this. I'm here for it.
9. Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Josh Barnett (U-Style - 11/23/2005)
Love this shout. I'm a big fan of this match. not quite a list maker for me, but one where I really love the dynamic
23. Takeshi Morishima vs. Bryan Danielson (ROH 8/25/2007)
I'm really happy this feud in general seems to be picking up steam on this board.
29. Eddie Guerrero vs. John Bradshaw Layfield (WWE - 5/16/2004)
Fuck yes.
30. Minoru Suzuki vs. Naoki Sano (PWFG - 7/26/1991)
OHHHHH FUCK YES!
31. Jon Moxley vs. Josh Barnett (GCW - 4/8/2021)
Man. I agree with Darren, your 2021 love is awesome. I personally need a little time to see how things age usually, but I really do think some of this is going to emerge as real contenders for me and my old-man ilk. This is one, for sure. This is a gnarly match.
32. Eddie Kingston vs. Bryan Danielson (AEW - 10/29/2021)
My current MOTY. I am so happy to see this get a vote. I ALMOST gave it my 100 spot for fun, but gave it to Brock/Dragon instead. I really think this is masterful.
35. La Parka vs. El Hijo del Santo (Monterrey - 12/23/2001)
Two of my absolute favorites of all time. I want this on my list, but every time I watch it I get pulled out by the stuff at the end. I've come around on matches before, maybe I will this one one day.
51. CM Punk vs. Eddie Kingston (AEW - 11/13/2021)
More Eddie Kingston on this list and more AEW brings joy to my dark little heart.
55. Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH - 4/25/2004)
I need someone to explain to me why this one is so universally preferred over the AJPW match between the two? I have both on my list, so I have no issue with this placement. I'm just confused by the lack of the other overall.
64. Bull Nakano vs. Shinobu Kandori (LLPW - 7/14/1994)
BOOM
73. Alexander Otsuka vs. Mitsuhiro Matsunaga (BattleArts - 11/9/1999)
Awesome shout here. This really is something to behold.
76. Brock Lesnar vs. Daniel Bryan (WWE - 11/18/2018)
Got my 100 spot at the last minute. It might be my favorite match to just pop on if I am bored and want good wrestling. It is so engaging and easy to digest. It is comfort food.
78. Aja Kong vs. KAORU (GAEA - 2/13/2000)
LOVE this match. I see it on a few lists, but it doesn't feel like a match that has a lot of general buzz or momentum. Maybe that is just me and my little corner of the internet.
82. Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi (AJPW - 4/16/1993)
Awesome to see this one too. I came away from my most recent watch thinking this is their best.
84. Masakatsu Funaki vs. Tatsuo Nakano (UWF - 7/24/1989)
This is a match that needs to be on more lists.
94. Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA (NWA - 11/28/1985)
Interesting. I always sort of think of this as a match that is either near the top for folks or not on the list at all. That is clearly a me thing. Interesting slotting all the same.
97. The Destroyer vs. Giant Baba (JWA - 3/5/1969)
BABA!
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Post by gramsci on Dec 14, 2021 10:32:38 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments!
Yeah, 1997 is up there with 2021 as one of my favourites years as a wrestling fan!
Tully/Magnum was one of the matches I didn't have time to rewatch but I didn't want to leave it off the list either.
I've always been a fan of Eddie/JBL but after submitting the list I felt like maybe I should have ranked it better, it's a serious top 10 contender.
I agree with what you said about Kobashi/Takayama, their 2004 match is awesome but the 2000 one is something else, Kobashi comes out there with such an aura, he looks like the perfect Ace. The finish of the match is one of my favourites and something that elevates it.
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