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Post by kas on Oct 21, 2021 5:25:11 GMT -5
Well after what just happened I don't think this qualifies for greatest last match ever anymore...
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Post by Cap on Oct 21, 2021 9:05:59 GMT -5
I know. I sort of thought about that. It obviously shouldn't take away from the match, but it will be interesting to see if anyone's opinion changes on it over time if Shibata comes back to the ring for more than just a one off grappling exhibition.
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Post by kas on Oct 21, 2021 9:32:11 GMT -5
It only improves it for me. What was genuinely an unwatchable moment that hurts the match, has since had its effect diminished with every return he's had and now it's 'only' an uncomfortable moment. Though I dread what this might mean for shoot headbutts in puro and Joshi, things were already getting a bit out of hand.
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Post by cactus on Oct 27, 2021 8:18:03 GMT -5
The once-disgraced shooter takes on the golden boy in an effort to finally complete his redemption. I was worried this wouldn't hold up as a lot of the NJPW main events struggle to stay engaging on rewatches as you are just waiting for them to get to the good stuff. Shibata is clearly fucking with Okada as he dominates him during the opening matwork and this keeps the first 15 minutes engaging and is essential to the story they are telling. The finishing stretch is more typical for your usual Okada IWGP bout, but with added legitimacy as some of the strikes are mortifyingly stiff. This is a match you can show someone who scoffs at wrestling for being fake and they would walk away with some newfound respect for this crazy art form we all love. I'm struggling to think of a better 2010's NJPW match and I can comfortably say this is both guys' best match. If this is Shibata's last ever match, what a note to go out on.
★★★★★
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Post by tetsujin on Oct 27, 2021 17:02:08 GMT -5
It isn't though! He returned at the G1 finals and wrestled ZSJ.
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Post by Cap on Oct 27, 2021 17:23:48 GMT -5
Well.... a 5 minute grappling exhibition is like one foot in and one foot out to me.
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Post by elliott on Oct 27, 2021 17:30:13 GMT -5
Katsuyori Shibata vs Kazuchika Okada (IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW - 4/9/2017) This match might be somewhat controversial because of what happened to Shibata, but I think it is easily one of the best matches of the year (outside of the headbutt). I strongly prefer it to the (in)famous 6 star classic between Omega and Okada. I just think this is a really compelling blend between Shibata's strong style and Okada's more traditional wrestling style. They make those two speak to each other really well. One of 2-3 matches I am considering for my match of the year in 2017. What happened to Shibata?
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Post by kas on Oct 27, 2021 17:34:53 GMT -5
As a result of a headbutt in this match (and due to headbutts he did throughout his career), he suffered a subdural hematoma and paralysis on his right side. He was given a "18 % or lower" chance of survival according to him, but he survived and is healthy. He has since recovered and become a trainer for NJPW in America and had a 5-minute grappling exhibition with Zack Sabre Junior last week. It's still not likely he's cleared for full-time in-ring, but he's apparently been cleared to do these short grappling exhibitions.
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Post by elliott on Oct 27, 2021 17:49:10 GMT -5
Holy fucking fuck. I'm sorry I asked. That's horrible I hope one day he'll be ok.
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Post by kas on Oct 27, 2021 17:53:46 GMT -5
He does seem to be doing ok - physically he looks in great shape and he was even able to do an angle when KENTA turned heel in 2019, though it was obvious they were trying to be as safe as possible
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Post by makaiclub on Dec 14, 2021 18:25:38 GMT -5
Historic match with tons of great moments throughout the match, a great closing stretch and a harrowing story coming out of it. Although Shibata’s passiveness in his grappling earlier in the match made for a dull start, when Okada began to fight back and Shibata started to counter him at every move, the match got better and allowed the match to go on the journey it went on. A terrific display of someone on the top of the world, on their perch, getting their butt beaten black and blue. Shibata gets big plaudits for this match but Okada’s role was vital. Without Okada’s character work, willingness to get shown up for 30+ minutes and the very idea of who he is, this match doesn’t work the way it does. Shibata delivered though, so there is that. Great work on the arm, stiff strikes to the body, chest, face, limbs, etc. This had all the Shibata trimmings from his matches against Ishii and Goto, including the headbutt which ended his career (only now does he have some chance of returning under very specific conditions), but it surprisingly doesn’t affect him until the near end. Tremendous match but some things take it down a notch from being on THAT level. ****1/2
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Post by nova on Jan 20, 2022 7:51:35 GMT -5
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Post by Cap on Jan 20, 2022 14:30:41 GMT -5
This is on the short list of matches that I think could eventually unseat the king and take the #1 spot eventually. I suppose a massive shift in the voter pool could make all sorts of things happen, but this is one of a hand full of matches that I see a path for based on the board today. For example, I personally think this has a better chance at taking the #1 spot than Sangre Chicana/MS1 or Kohsaka/Tamura, both of which I have higher myself and have out performed it in the past.
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Post by [Darren] on Jan 20, 2022 16:47:30 GMT -5
I’m with Cap. I definitely see this one creeping it’s way up to #1. I think younger voters coming in will have this quite high. Especially with Shibata coming out of retirement this match kinda has taken on a new life.
I will not be considering it for my lists but I am sure it will climb up overall.
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Post by fxnj on May 14, 2023 3:34:47 GMT -5
Not sure if it's no longer having the thought of this match ruining Okada's life looming over it, or it just being easier to judge this match on its own terms a few years removed from the ridiculous hype it got, but I'm a lot more at peace rewatching this match now compared to my thoughts on it in 2018.
I actually thought the opening matwork was perfectly solid and enjoyable. Shibata showing how effortlessly he could move into a dominant position or pulling out a snazzy British wrestling counterhold was far more about the mental game than anything to actually wear down Okada physically. I loved the callback to Ali/Inoki. The matwork was less about being technically great and more about setting the tone for the match's story. That story was the prodigal son of 2000's NJPW finally getting his big chance and using it completely school the golden boy of 2010's NJPW. And because of how committed they are to using the matwork to tell that story, the dick measuring striking sections end up feeling like they have a lot more meaning behind them than your usual by the numbers puro exchanges.
Where the match falters for me is in the middle section, specifically Okada's control segment about 14 minutes in. That section is a perfect example of something that always annoys me with Okada, where he moves in slow motion as a way of forcing an unearned sense of profundity. After a minutes of that, though, it regains its footing when they switch back to stiffing each other. Pretty much from that point on, Shibata looks like the baddest man on the planet as he shows answers to everything Okada can throw at him, responds with these perfectly timed strikes accompanied by sickening thuds, and demonstrates a mastery of psychological warfare. I also have to give credit to Okada for doing a good job of selling Shibata's shoulder stretch so it actually looks like a credible match ender.
I'd say the stretch run begins with Shibata withstanding the rainmaker and responding with that sick headbutt. I don't think there would be much argument against that being the most iconic spot of 2010's NJPW. For me, the last few minutes did a good job of making it look like Okada had been completely outclassed but then reversing it into a situation where he could still credibly pull out a win. Whereas Shibata got more and more arrogant as the match progressed, Okada, after his initial lackluster control segment, learned to make the most out of every opportunity he got on top. I feel like the headbutt took a lot more out of Shibata than he was letting on and he missed his chance to finish off Okada when he could have. If you pay attention to Shibata during those last few minutes, it looks like he's fading and doing his best to hang in long enough to finish the match. Knowing his situation afterwards, I wonder if he made the call to take it home a few minutes early.
Main issues remain that Okada isn't all that interesting for most of the match and 37 minutes is a bit long for the material they had. On the other hand, the match delivers on making Shibata look like a total badass and I can see why newer fans identify with him so much in this. I think I'd be a lot more into it if they tightened it up by about 10 minutes. I'd go about **** on it right now.
Tangentially related, I watched a film analysis video a few months back that mentioned Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver, Brad Pitt in Fight Club, and Joaquin Phoenix in Joker are all different renditions of fundamentally the same archetype and that which one someone relates to is primarily dependent on which they were first introduced to during their formative years. Kawada's performances against Misawa filled that role for me and I never thought any of those film characters had a patch on him, but I guess someone coming to this match after only seeing US wrestling their whole lives could think the same about Shibata's performance here. Never a great feeling for me to think about how 90's AJPW seems to be getting progressively displaced in the canon, but I guess that's the natural cycle of things.
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