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Post by Cap on Aug 4, 2020 18:31:32 GMT -5
Ran across an extended conversation from last year about Kawada v Hansen and I wanted to give myself the motivation to add it and something else to my watch list for this weekend. I realized Kawada/Hansen been sort of slipping down my list a bit (a lot since my very first list). I wanted to rewatch it and put it next to something very different to see if its slipping because it deserves it or if because i just haven't watched it all that recently... so I found a match that I am a little high on relatively speaking (I think at least). Duggan/Sawyer is one of my favorite territory brawls and features one of the best post matches ever. There are some obvious differences between these two matches, but I think there are some interesting similarities as well. Both matches are physical and try to capture a sense of chaos.
So...
Jim Duggan vs Buzz Sawyer (No DQ – 11/11/1985)
vs
Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada (2/28/1993)
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Post by bossrock on Aug 4, 2020 18:45:25 GMT -5
Duggan-Sawyer is a really good brawl, but Hansen-Kawada is still an all-timer for me. Duggan-Sawyer is more of that territory-style bloody brawl whereas Hansen-Kawada is more of a heavy-hitting slugfest. But as far as territory-style bloody brawls go, I would still put Duggan-DiBiase, Magnum-Tully, and Funk-Flair GAB over Duggan-Sawyer.
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Post by Cap on Aug 4, 2020 18:57:45 GMT -5
I have Magnum-Tully and Funk-Flair higher, but not Duggan-DiBiase, which had diminishing returns for me.
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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2020 23:02:23 GMT -5
Duggan/Sawyer is an actual great match. Kawada/Hansen is like a ** match.
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Post by nintendologic on Aug 5, 2020 7:19:46 GMT -5
As soon as this matchup was announced, everyone turned toward the entrance ramp in anticipation of the elliott run-in.
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Post by Cap on Aug 5, 2020 7:46:53 GMT -5
I mean, half the reason I booked the damn match was for the run-in
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Post by elliott on Aug 5, 2020 10:47:19 GMT -5
Audience needed the excitement
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Post by Cap on Aug 5, 2020 12:02:58 GMT -5
Its long term booking. Elliot vs Kawada is the real payoff
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Post by elliott on Aug 5, 2020 14:59:23 GMT -5
He would sell my first strike as a KO and then id target his paper machete knees until he convincingly put me over clean.
Bossrock would rank it 78th overall. 😀😀😀
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Post by microstatistics on Aug 5, 2020 15:12:06 GMT -5
Duggan/Sawyer is an actual great match. Kawada/Hansen is like a ** match. I disagree. Both matches are terrible.
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Post by bossrock on Aug 5, 2020 18:15:26 GMT -5
He would sell my first strike as a KO and then id target his paper machete knees until he convincingly put me over clean. Bossrock would rank it 78th overall. 😀😀😀 Because it would be awesome. Kawada is so good he'd make any of us look like a million bucks.
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Post by Cap on Aug 5, 2020 18:43:43 GMT -5
I am going to go to Kawada's noodle house and get him to have a 30 second match with me and do his KO sell for my shitty-ass working punch and then I'm going t put it on youtube, nominate it, and vote it #1 every year.
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Post by Cap on Aug 6, 2020 14:07:22 GMT -5
Ok... just checked and Kawada vs Hansen is still great. I'll sort of go through a little defense of the match based on what I remember the criticisms being, not to convince anyone, but so this will serve as my reply on two threads. I think the structure of the match is solid. It is built - I think - around the notion that these are two bullies who know the other is a bully but can't help being a bully. If you have ever seen Deadwood there is a hoss fight between Dan and The Captian that I kept thinking about in this. Intuitively you might associate the scene more with Duggan Sawyer and there are overlaps there too, but I think the essence is more in line here. It's obviously very different, but that bully dynamic and the push and pull between desperation and machismo is in there. That informs just about everything here. It informs them being the shit out of each other. There is very much an "anything way you can hurt me, i can hurt you better, I can can hurt you better than you" vibe to their exchanges. They parallel each other's offense a lot, especially early when they can afford to in logic of the match. It also informs why the spurts of offense are short and no one seems to get much momentum. The back and forth is almost always marked by what looks like a desperation shot to cut off any momentum before it gets going. They know they can't stay on bottom against the other one. There is also this sort of push bull between them trying to throw killshots from the gun and feeling like they have it under control. I think that makes perfect sense because... they are two bullies who know the other is a bully but can't help being a bully. When they feel on the defensive, wounded, or stunned they are going for those big shots. Hansen's are the most pronounced and it obviously culminates with him going so hard for the lariat that he falls out the damn ring. However, when either man gets the slightest bit of of control they want to enjoy it, inflict pain and prove they are the bigger man. Again, Hansen does a better job of selling this with his facial expressions. I thought it was particularly on display when he was climbing the ropes after sort of sauntering around Kawada. he looked over and gave a little smile... he thought he had it, finally. I don't know, the logic and structure of that all seems sound to me. The ebbs and flows of adrenaline are more or less consistent with AJPW at the time. It is really great action. Hansen admittedly carries most of narrative and the little details that I think put it over, but that is to be expected. In all honestly, I like Kawada a lot, but he has never been my favorite pillar and Hansen is the third or fourth best wrestler to ever lace up boots in my mind. That isn't to put Kawada down at all. I thought he was fantasic in this, especially keeping pace with Hansen in this dynamic in a way that was believable and compelling (at least to many of us, before anyone starts haha), despite his size. As for Duggan and Sawyer... ugh, chefs kiss to the end of that match. Brilliant. Ok, if you go bell to bell for this it isn't a top 100 match. If you go beginning of scene to end, it is. I didn't realize when I put these two together how important "bullies" would be, but here we are. The bullies in this set of matches (especially Sawyer) are more like the bullies I grew up with in West Virginia. They weren't the kind that magically back down when you stand up to them. They were ass holes, but they could back it up. This match - as I said - more aesthetically and probably intuitively resembles that Dan vs The Captain fight, but this has a walking tall babyface who gets distracted not because he is cocky, but because he is kinda dumb and enjoys the admiration of the crowd. This starts hot and never really slows down. I think there is a small moment where Duggan loses the plot a bit,but I think Sawyer puts on an all timer of a performance with his selling and with keeping Duggan moving and on track here. Sawyer was probably a real life ass hole and probably wasn't easy to work with, but when he was on and motivated... man, he was good. Nothing here is about the moves or the offense. Its about the visceral feel of the match. this feels like a bar fight. They have pretty clear sections of the match (opposed to Kawada/Hansen). They are both bleeding and providing you - even in this dark ass room - with a lot of great visuals that are needed for a match with this approach needs I think. The last few minutes are mint though. Everything from Sawyer leaving just to run back and jump Duggan was great. He doesn't care about the match, he couldn't be shown up. I never thought of this til today and maybe others have discussed it, this is pretty great production at the end to. I think they way they cut things told the Sawyer's story. He knows he is beat, but he can't leave it alone. He is a bully and an asshole, not a coward. He is a real, bad guy, not someone who just needs an ass whoopin. They catch - so strategically - Sawyer leaving only to stop as the chants get louder. He wont leave, he waits and breaks away to attack Duggan. They produce probably the most authentic late night brawl feel possible here. The end with Duggan calling sawyer a son of a bitch and Sawyer just screaming DUGGAN! was incredible. Its hard to compare them. I think the more visceral and clear story goes to Duggan/Hogan. I the execution and start-to-finish consistency goes to Kawada/Hansen. I like the fall out of the ring lariat from hansen, but it is nothing compared to the post-match magic of Duggan/Sawyer as a "finish". I think I am going to give it to Kawada/Hansen by a hair (as it is on my list currently). It deserved the fall it took on my list, but it stops here. Ultimately, I Sawyer/Duggan came closer to losing me at a certain point and I think they tell equally compelling stories, with one having better/more interesting execution of that story and the other riding a killer ending. I'll take the consistency. P.S. Here is a link to Dan vs The Captain. Warning: it is pretty brutal. If we gave star ratings to movie/tv fights, this one gets 5 stars and could make my top 100, if we took pre and post fight promos into consideration: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rLOl14SLQ8
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