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Post by Cap on Nov 23, 2020 9:56:26 GMT -5
So I watched the Taker farewell segment this morning. I couldn't help but think that, of all the ways the pandemic era has taken from or diminished aspects of wrestling from us this year, this might be the most disappointing. It was perfectly fine, but having it in front of screens with pumped in crowd noise just felt... contrived. I like me some heartfelt retirement segments, so I sort of expected and wanted to be more moved by the whole thing. I just wasn't, really.
In turn, I thought it was as good a time as any to start a thread about the good and bad of this strange era. Wondering what stands out to others.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 10:42:13 GMT -5
Okada v Shingo G1, AJ v Bryan and Walter v Dragunov have been some of my favourite covid era matches. i liked Cody v Darby and YB v FTR from Full Gear too.
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Post by nintendologic on Nov 23, 2020 16:29:55 GMT -5
My top three of the COVID era are WALTER/Dragunov, Bryan/Styles, and Cody/Darby. The GHC title match between Go Shiozaki and Katsuhiko Nakajima from a few days ago has been getting some MOTY buzz, so I checked it out today. I will say that I really liked the first 20 minutes or so. If it had wrapped up shortly after that mark, it would've been a strong MOTYC in my book. Unfortunately, it continued for another 20 minutes and got progressively stupider as it went along.
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Post by Cap on Nov 23, 2020 16:53:13 GMT -5
I need to go rewatch Cody/Darby. I liked it a lot, but it didn't strike me as a MOTY. I'll try to get to that this weekend at the latest.
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Post by Cap on Nov 23, 2020 19:19:08 GMT -5
quick list...
The Good
- Actually lots of good matches. I image we got robbed of a lot of great matches and that some of these might have even been better, but I don't think we are actually short on good matches. I'll just list my top 5 as of right now:
1. Walter vs Ilja Dragunov (NXT UK Title - 10/29) 2. Minoru Suzuki vs Kota Ibushi (10/10) 3. Daniel Bryan vs AJ Styles (IC Title - 6/12) 4. Kota Ibushi vs Kazuchika Okada (IWGP Title - 1/4) 5. FTR vs Adam Page and Kenny Omega (AEW Tag Titles - 9/5)
- Some really talented people have really stood out in this era, especially when each company was trying to figure out what to do about noise. I think Asuka is the biggest standout in this regard. I don't watch much main roster, but I cherry pick. She jumps off the screen as someone who gets the dynamic and is thinking about how to maximize her time.
- Creativity! I don't think we would have gotten the Stadium Stampede without the pandemic. We probably got a much better bit of wrestling business out of Taker/Styles than we would have in a traditional match. I liked the Firefly Funhouse thing (not sure it was a match) and I'm not sure what we would have got with fans at mania on that one too.
The Bad
- General struggle for atmosphere. I know modern wrestling is tough for some people because they just need the crowd.
- Ratings grabs... I feel like we are seeing even more ratings grab booking moves, especially from the WWE. It can be fun, but it makes it hard for me to invest. I found the 4 way iron man in NXT going to a tie only for Balor vs Cole to follow the next week actively bad. That kind of bait and switch drives me nuts.
- Wrestlemania. It was fine at the time. I found enjoyment in it. I'll likely never go back and watch it. Compared to what we even have now that thing was absolutely devoid of atmosphere. I have a love/hate relationship with mania anymore, since probably WM 30. I have find the show unbearably long, and mostly disappointing (more contrived "moment making" and less wrestling"), but I always get excited because it is mania season and when something good happens it is often really good. This was... not good
- The business side of this. I won't get too far into it, but its been both bad and ugly in some ways.
The Ugly
- Diminishing returns on the cinematic matches. There have been some highs and lows, but it is getting to the point where things don't feel special even. Hardy vs Guevara was not a bad little cinematic match, but I just couldn't be bothered.
- The taker farewell. Ugh... I suppose I see why some people like it, but that felt almost disrespectful to me. I'm not even the biggest taker fan. If I was I think I'd be actively mad instead of eh, disappointed.
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Post by kas on Nov 23, 2020 19:44:11 GMT -5
That NxT 4-way was really bad. I watched it out of morbid curiosity and was at least expecting total mayhem involving ladders, weapons, and some ridiculous sequences. Instead it was mostly workrate and actually pretty tame in that regard, with an awful ending.
On the good side of things though, WALTER Vs Dragunov is a top 10 WWE match of all time for me, and I think I like it more than I would have with a crowd. There was also some stellar G1 bouts like Okada/Shingo, White/Ishii, Naito/Tanahashi, Suzuki/Ibushi and Taichi/Ibushi.
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Post by Cap on Nov 23, 2020 20:24:53 GMT -5
I also think I might like Walter v Dragunov more because there wasn't a crowd, particularly in that context. I am not sure if it is just a match that was really built for this setting or not. On one hand, you can hear every hit. You can hear their screams of anger and pain. It is just visceral. On the other hand, modern crowds in general might have just not been good for something like this where the focus really needs to be on the wrestling. A lot of crowds are guilty of this, but NXT crowds and some UK crowds can be more into doing their own thing and being too cute than they are into watching wrestling sometimes. I don't know if that is the case with NXT UK because I honestly haven't watched enough, but I know the progress crowd could be AWESOME one night and then sort of annoying the next. I guess it is smaller-show crowds in general, but the UK was sooooooo hot I think even some audiences got a little full of themselves.
I cherry picked the G1, but there were a lot of bangers.
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Post by bossrock on Nov 24, 2020 12:06:33 GMT -5
Best matches:
1. Kazuchika Okada vs. Tetsuya Naito (Wrestle Kingdom 14 night 2)
2. Kenny Omega and Hangman Page vs. The Young Bucks (Revolution)
3. Kazuchika Okada vs. Kota Ibushi (Wrestle Kingdom 14 night 1)
4. WALTER vs. Ilja Dragunov (NXT UK 10/29)
5. Stadium Stampede (Double or Nothing)
6. Will Ospreay vs. Hiromu Takahashi (Wrestle Kingdom 14 night 1)
7. Kazuchika Okada vs. Shingo Takagi (G1 Climax 10/10)
8. Kota Ibushi vs. Minoru Suzuki (G1 Climax 10/10)
9. Kenoh vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (NOAH Departure 8/4)
10. Bayley vs. Sasha Banks (Hell in a Cell)
The Good:
Use of cinematic and edited matches has led to some really creative and fun stuff. I do agree that there is diminishing returns, but I can still admire and appreciate the creativity of stuff like Guevara-Hardy. Stadium Stampede was the biggest hoot of a match I've seen in possibly ever. The Boneyard Match was also really good and a fitting final match for Taker (this should've been his send-off).
The Bad:
COVID limiting which wrestlers are able to travel and compete. This required feuds and stories to either be delayed or scrapped while pushing unexpected wrestlers. I feel like EVIL would have been pushed regardless, but his getting hot-shotted into the Naito feud because no one else was available was obviously the lowest point of NJPW this year. AEW also saw a rushed Mox-Brodie feud which, while led to an entertaining match, made for a lackluster ppv build. MJF was also gone for several weeks which stalled his momentum.
I didn't hate the Taker send-off, but it indeed felt rather hollow due to the piped-in crowd noise. Not to mention they brought out all these legends to do absolutely nothing but stand in the ring until Taker came out. Nearly every single legend is in the at-risk category for COVID and yet there they were all in the ring at the same time.
The Ugly:
Companies' overall handling of COVID has ranged from irresponsible to downright disgusting. There was a story nearly every week of what awful thing WWE was doing, whether it be not testing wrestlers, not revealing to staff who tested positive, and Linda McMahon basically bribing state officials to allow wrestlers to be deemed essential workers. Not to mention the number of folks they cut for "financial reasons" despite scoring record profits. AEW handled things a bit better but allowing fans back into the arena still seems unwise.
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Post by Cap on Nov 25, 2020 12:54:00 GMT -5
I wonder what pushes/runs have benifitted from this, if any.
I haven't watched much main roster WWE other than cherry picking, but at least we aren't dealing with them forcing things simply to spite the audience (which I genuinely think happens sometimes). Honestly, WWE being able to control the audience to this extent is probably Vince's dream.
The Reigns turn has been something I would consider "Good". I am not sure if it would have gone differently with an audience, but there are a lot of folks out there still stuck in the "Roman sucks" mindset. I can imagine him getting weird mixed reactions that confuse the wwe on how to proceed.
In the same vein, Drew's push and run hasn't had to deal with potential audience fickleness. I've only heard podcast reviews, but it seems uneven. I can see crowds turning on it, which would be a shame.
I suspect Kingston would have gotten over either way in AEW, but taking the variable of the live audience out made his rise to a title match a bit more seamless I think.
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Post by bossrock on Nov 26, 2020 10:13:09 GMT -5
Agreed on Reigns' heel turn. Imagine doing this 5 years ago.
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