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Post by elliott on Feb 26, 2021 16:14:59 GMT -5
This post or thread isn't directed at anyone specifically but is meant to be a Women's Wrestling Thread where we can discuss the various styles and wrestlers, ask questions, make match recommendations etc. I hope those who are interested use this as a resource because I think you'll find some awesome wrestling! My wheelhouse is really 80s and 90s Japanese Women's wrestling. I was watching in real time in the early 2000s up until around 2002, but I haven't revisited all of that early 2000s stuff since then. So I will be able to answer questions and discuss that 80s & 90s era, but I would also like to utilize this thread for modern women's wrestling as well. I'm very interested in learning more about the modern women's scene in Japan and the United States. The last time I really dove into a lot of modern wrestling and really enjoyed it and wanted to watch more of it was the NXT/WWE Women's run from Sasha vs Becky in NXT to the Sasha vs Charlotte vs Becky WrestleMania match. My first follow up post and initial discussion are going to be centered on 80s and 90s Joshi, but this thread doesn't have to just be for that. Feel free to use this thread to make recommendations of women's wrestling from any era and any county.
Joshi is often described as a niche product that people struggle to appreciate which often leaves me scratching my head. When I think about 80s and 90s Joshi, I see an extremely broad genre of wrestling that had a massive influence over men's wrestling (whether the male wrestlers and fans want to admit it or not, its true) and should have appeal to any wrestling fan. I know people like to describe Joshi as a "style" people don't like or can't get into, but Dump Matsumoto, Jaguar Yokota, Dynamite Kansai and Mariko Yoshida were all "Joshi" wrestlers and their matches could not be more different from one another. There's something in 80s and 90s Joshi for everyone. YOu just have to know where to look. Hopefully that's what this thread will be about. Pointing folks in the direction of where they want to go.
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Post by elliott on Feb 26, 2021 16:16:08 GMT -5
So marksman said he liked matches with a clear heel/face divide. YOu and me both! Its something I always look for in wrestling. I can dig a heel vs heel match honestly. But something like two babyfaces or even worse two "athletes" squaring off in a "legitimate contest" to figure out "who is the better man" holds little interest for me at this point. Flair vs Steamboat is great but what I really want is someone trying to cheat behind the ref's back. Or someone who is just an asshole getting their comeuppance. Or the smaller underdog overcoming the odds.
Fortunately, you get this sort of thing all the time in Joshi. The first thing you hear about when you hear about 80s Joshi is Chigusa Nagayo vs Dump Matsumoto. It is arguably (imo, not arguably but IS definitely) the greatest pure babyface vs heel matchup in history. Peak Dump Matsumoto lasted from probably 1/85-11/86 and is the single greatest heel run in the history of wrestling. In terms of quality matches and crowd response, I can't think of anything that can touch that run. There's no mistaking Dump & her army as evil dastardly heels. The main thing to be prepared for in 80s Dump is that their is liberal outside interference. Often right in front of the referee. This is a staple of the style to be ready for.
I wouldn't start with the famous Matsumoto vs Chigusa Hair matches from 85 and 86. They are all time classic, must watch matches. But definitely don't watch them first. Get used to what a Dump Matsumoto match is like first.
Otherwise, I'm not going to spend time recommending Dump matches from the mid 80s. Because you should literally watch every one of them. You will get no better heel vs face matchup than Dump Matsumoto vs Anybody
I do have more specific recommendations to make:
First, big cosign on all these matches Cap recommended here. The only reason I didn't list them out here, is because Cap already did. Those are must see watch matches:
gweproject.freeforums.net/post/10035/thread
Crush Gals (Chigusa Nagayo & Lioness Asuka) vs Lola Gonzalez & La Tarantula 10/6/84 - This is part of the Crush Gals vs Dump Matsumoto feud as Dump is at ringside interfering liberally. Awesome match
Glamour Girls vs Hisako Uno & Yumiko Hotta (4/15/87 - AJW) - Awesome southern style tag match with the heel gaijin against 19 & 20 year old Akira Hokuto & Yumiko Hotta
Chigusa Nagayo vs Devil Masami 4/15/87 - Cap mentioned their classic on 8/22/85. This is also absolutely spectacular. My notes specifically mention Devil's heel work.
Marine Wolves (Akira Hokuto & Suzuka Minami) vs Bison Kimura & Grizzly Iwamoto 6/18/89 - I described this as like a Doom vs Rockers 2/3 Falls No DQ Match. Yes please.
Akira Hokuto vs. Bull Nakano (AJW 1/4/91) - You got your world champ vs probably the next big thing. Bull at her peak vs Hokuto when she was getting best in the world talk.
Aja Kong & Bison Kimura vs. Manami Toyota & Esther Moreno (AJW 4/29/91) - Unbelieveable tag match. You get big vs little psychology as well as heel/face. Don't let people's knocks of Toyota dissuade you from this. amazing match.
Devil Masami vs. Itsuki Yamazaki (JWP 8/30/91) - More big vs little but Masami is one of the all time greats and Yamazaki a contender for most underrated ever. Watch this.
Aja Kong vs Megumi Kudo AJW 12/6/93 - I wanted to include a Megumi Kudo match because she's an awesome babyface wrestler. vs Aja is a good one. Arm psychology makes this one of those universal matches I can't imagine folks not at least digging on some level.
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Post by elliott on Feb 26, 2021 16:20:08 GMT -5
Follow up to the above post.
Marksman, or anyone, as you're watching these matches let us know which ones you like and we can further point you in that direction. This is really just a taste because I didn't want to post 100 matches at once to recommend. Wanted to start smaller. If you like the 80s stuff, we can look more at that stuff. If something like Hokuto vs Nakano floats your boat more so, we can look at stuff like that too.
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Post by marksman on Feb 27, 2021 2:44:47 GMT -5
Great list, thanks Elliott! Will definitely post saying which ones I like.  |
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Post by Cap on Feb 27, 2021 10:14:00 GMT -5
Great stuff. I'll probably dig into some of these later today.
When i have time, I may use this thread to try to talk through why I like 80s and 90s joshi so much. Post 2000 joshi and women's wrestling in the us, mexico, and europe can be good, but I haven't found the high end stuff comparable to the best of 80s or 90s joshi really. I really took to joshi pretty quickly and I think the best stuff is quite literally the best wrestling ever, but I've recently been trying to articulate why I like it so much. Maybe it is a fruitless.
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Post by elliott on Feb 27, 2021 11:41:02 GMT -5
Great stuff. I'll probably dig into some of these later today. When i have time, I may use this thread to try to talk through why I like 80s and 90s joshi so much. Post 2000 joshi and women's wrestling in the us, mexico, and europe can be good, but I haven't found the high end stuff comparable to the best of 80s or 90s joshi really. I really took to joshi pretty quickly and I think the best stuff is quite literally the best wrestling ever, but I've recently been trying to articulate why I like it so much. Maybe it is a fruitless. Its because the Japanese women wrestlers in the 80s and 90s were better than the men. (Not just the Japanese men. Everyone) There are some exceptions here and there but they tend to prove the rule. Look at that Yokota vs Sato match I just posted about. 18 years old and Jaguar looks like the best wrestler in the world working a match 10 years ahead of its time. COmpare that Yokota match to Jumbo vs Murdoch or Buddy ROse vs Rick Martel or Backlund vs Patera from 1980 and it is abundantly clear who is working on a different level |
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Post by marksman on Feb 28, 2021 10:38:48 GMT -5
Aja Kong & Bison Kimura vs. Manami Toyota & Esther Moreno (AJW 4/29/91) - Loved this one, felt like an absolute war in which everyone on both sides came out of it looking incredible!
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Post by elliott on Feb 28, 2021 13:44:44 GMT -5
I am crazy about that Jungle Jack vs Toyota & Moreno match. I need to rewatch it, its been a minute
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Post by elliott on Mar 17, 2021 23:21:32 GMT -5
I've been watching some turn of the century Joshi lately and I'm reminded how fun that era was and how bright the future looked. None of us thought it was as good as the best 80s and 90s stuff, but that next generation had some really fun workers. Meiko Satomura is recognized as a great wrestler by pretty much everyone and deservedly, but folks like Chikayo Nagashima, Toshie Uematsu, Yoshiko Tamura, The Bloody, Sugar Sato, Sumi Sakai etc look really awesome and I'm enjoying watching them. I want to check out Ran Yu Yu and Misae Genki because I remember them being really good but its been 20 years since I've thought about them let alone watched.
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