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Post by Cap on Apr 7, 2021 8:33:42 GMT -5
I don't think Samoa Joe has gotten quite enough love in these comparison talks yet. So lets put him up against a heavy hitter and see how it goes...
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Post by KB8 on Apr 7, 2021 8:57:25 GMT -5
I don't really have the time to go full point by point on this, but while I'd still likely go with Aja I watched a big chunk of 2000s indies at the end of last year and Joe came out of that really well. I've always liked him without him ever really being a favourite, but he routinely looked great and unique during his peak run. If I were to rank all of THOSE guys he'd be up there towards the top with the likes of Bryan, Ki, Hero and Necro.
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Post by nintendologic on Apr 7, 2021 10:07:28 GMT -5
I feel like Aja has to get the nod thanks to her absurd Tenryu-level longevity. Keep in mind that she debuted in 1986. She was involved in a MOTYC as recently as 2019 (the joshi trios at Double or Nothing) and was in a singles MOTYC the year before that (vs. Shida).
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Post by elliott on Apr 7, 2021 11:32:26 GMT -5
I feel like Aja has to get the nod thanks to her absurd Tenryu-level longevity. Keep in mind that she debuted in 1986. She was involved in a MOTYC as recently as 2019 (the joshi trios at Double or Nothing) and was in a singles MOTYC the year before that (vs. Shida). True but she wasn't consistently great until like 1993. Aja in 1986 or 1988 is completely unrecognizable compared to prime mid 90s Aja. Even 1990 Aja is working completely differently from 1995 Aja. |
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Post by nintendologic on Apr 7, 2021 13:30:46 GMT -5
I feel like Aja has to get the nod thanks to her absurd Tenryu-level longevity. Keep in mind that she debuted in 1986. She was involved in a MOTYC as recently as 2019 (the joshi trios at Double or Nothing) and was in a singles MOTYC the year before that (vs. Shida). True but she wasn't consistently great until like 1993. Aja in 1986 or 1988 is completely unrecognizable compared to prime mid 90s Aja. Even 1990 Aja is working completely differently from 1995 Aja. Sure, but Tenryu was pretty terrible himself for nearly a decade after debuting. In both cases, once the light bulb went on, they were consistently great for decades. |
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Post by elliott on Apr 7, 2021 13:56:35 GMT -5
This is fair and definitely makes the comparison more apt!
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Post by Kadaveri on Apr 7, 2021 14:02:01 GMT -5
She may not have been a great wrestler until 1993, but I think the important point she was still suffering the wear and tear of being a full-time pro-wrestler for all those years. It's pretty phenomenal Aja is still having really good matches to this date considering her physical state. She has virtually no athletic ability at all anymore, but she 'gets' wrestling so well she just works around it. Compare the best Aja Kong matches of the last 5 years with Andre the Giant's immobile period and she's so far ahead it's barely worth discussing, and he's supposed to be a paragon of working smart.
Samoa Joe's peak run is awesome, maybe even better than Aja. But post-2008 he really drops of a cliff and has shockingly few great matches when you sit down and look at it.
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Post by elliott on Apr 7, 2021 14:24:28 GMT -5
She may not have been a great wrestler until 1993, but I think the important point she was still suffering the wear and tear of being a full-time pro-wrestler for all those years. It's pretty phenomenal Aja is still having really good matches to this date considering her physical state. She has virtually no athletic ability at all anymore, but she 'gets' wrestling so well she just works around it. Compare the best Aja Kong matches of the last 5 years with Andre the Giant's immobile period and she's so far ahead it's barely worth discussing, and he's supposed to be a paragon of working smart.Samoa Joe's peak run is awesome, maybe even better than Aja. But post-2008 he really drops of a cliff and has shockingly few great matches when you sit down and look at it. He was also basically crippled and near death. So Aja has that going for her  How familiar are you with the last 15 years of Aja? I need a primer of what prioritize during GWE from 2004-present excluding matches against Satomura. I don't deny that she was awesome during this stretch, I just haven't seen it or seen anyone really talk about it beyond generalities. If Aja's mid 2000s-present is like 90s-mid 2000s Tenryu level stuff, she becomes like a top 15 contender for me. |
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Post by Kadaveri on Apr 7, 2021 15:34:56 GMT -5
I'm trying to get more familiar actually. The reason Aja's got more talk lately is GAEA and AJW close in 2005 and Joshi is nearly off TV altogether and there's no streaming services yet, so almost nobody on the internet is talking about any good Aja Kong matches anymore until around 2016, when suddenly she's averaging one MOTYC and several really good matches every year again. Now I wouldn't quite say she's 'awesome during this stretch', she's still significantly below the output of her peak years and probably not on old Tenryu's level either. Pretty often she's clearly just coasting on star power. But she's still really good, brings something unique to her matches and she's still capable of going 4 Star+ when put in a big match situation with a good opponenet. She especially works really hard when she's putting someone over, which is charming. She's such a huge contrast to the rest of her generation or even the generation after, who were all either retired or just not worth watching ever by the early 00s. Now what really happened here? Was Aja just not any good for 10+ years, then for no apparent reason becomes really good again in her late 40s? Or is it simply the explosion of streaming services suddenly made her easily accessible again so we're actually seeing the matches now? It needs more investigation, I think it's the latter. Here's what I have post-2004 that I've marked as very good-to-great stuff. I haven't actually seen some of these in many years though so... don't hold me to it too strictly. Aja Kong & Ayako Hamada vs. Amazing Kong & Chikayo Nagashima - OZ Academy 08/08/04 Aja Kong vs. Chigusa Nagayo - GAEA 02/11/05 Aja Kong vs. Carlos Amano - GAEA 04/10/05 Aja Kong vs Ayako Hamada - Sendai Girls 07/22/07 Aja Kong vs. Carlos Amano - Oz Academy 01/13/08 Aja Kong vs. Atsuko Emoto - Revolucion Amandola 05/02/09 Aja Kong & Magnitude Kishiwada vs. Kyoko Kimura & Munenori Sawa - Revolucion Amandola 05/21/10 Aja Kong & Hailey Hatred vs. Kayoko Haruyama & Tsubasa Kuragaki - JWP 04/03/11 Aja Kong vs. Ayumi Kurihara - Oz Academy 05/12/13 Aja Kong vs. Hikaru Shida - Oz Academy 10/13/14 Aja Kong & Hiroyo Matsumoto vs. AKINO & Hikaru Shida - Oz Academy 02/12/16 Aja Kong vs. Hiroyo Matsumoto - Hiroyo Matsumoto Produce 07/31/16 Aja Kong vs. Chihiro Hashimoto - Sendai Girls 01/09/17 Aja Kong vs. Chihiro Hashimoto - Sendai Girls 04/06/17 Aja Kong vs. Viper - Pro-Wrestling Eve 05/05/18 Aja Kong vs. Hiroyo Matsumoto vs. Kaho Kobayashi vs. Mayumi Ozaki vs. Mika Akino vs. Sonoko Kato - Oz Academy 08/19/18 Aja Kong vs. Hikaru Shida - Oz Academy 09/17/18 Aja Kong, Emi Sakura & Yuka Sakazaki vs. Hikaru Shida, Riho & Ryo Mizunami - AEW 05/25/19 Aja Kong & Yuu vs. Meiko Satomura & Mika Iwata - Sendai Girls 06/08/19
There's also a match in Diana with Sareee in 2019 which got rave reviews from some of the 255 fans in the building and a 3 minute highlight clip... knowing their release schedule it'll probably be out on DVD around 2024.
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Post by elliott on Apr 7, 2021 15:40:45 GMT -5
I'm trying to get more familiar actually. The reason Aja's got more talk lately is GAEA and AJW close in 2005 and Joshi is nearly off TV altogether and there's no streaming services yet, so almost nobody on the internet is talking about any good Aja Kong matches anymore until around 2016, when suddenly she's averaging one MOTYC and several really good matches every year again. Now I wouldn't quite say she's 'awesome during this stretch', she's still significantly below the output of her peak years and probably not on old Tenryu's level either. Pretty often she's clearly just coasting on star power. But she's still really good, brings something unique to her matches and she's still capable of going 4 Star+ when put in a big match situation with a good opponenet. She especially works really hard when she's putting someone over, which is charming. She's such a huge contrast to the rest of her generation or even the generation after, who were all either retired or just not worth watching ever by the early 00s. Now what really happened here? Was Aja just not any good for 10+ years, then for no apparent reason becomes really good again in her late 40s? Or is it simply the explosion of streaming services suddenly made her easily accessible again so we're actually seeing the matches now? It needs more investigation, I think it's the latter.
Awesome! Thank you! I agree that she's likely been great this whole time and will look for these matches and be on the lookout for anything else worth of recommending. |
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Post by Kadaveri on Apr 7, 2021 15:44:56 GMT -5
If you haven't seen it yet, I'd recommend first watching the 2018 Hikaru Shida match seeing how it's already been nominated here. There is nobody in Joshi now who could have filled Aja's spot in that match and got something quite like that.
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Post by elliott on Apr 7, 2021 17:23:10 GMT -5
Yep that match is awesome.
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Post by Cap on Apr 13, 2021 20:12:59 GMT -5
Going to try to knock this out quickly without overthinking it. Top Matches - Aja Aja takes this by a hair. Joe has some really great high-end matches, but Aja gets the nod for having the highest ranked between them in the tag with bull vs Kandori/Hokuto.
Offense - Aja
Man... Again, really really close. I think Joe is one of the better offensive workers in America, but I'll give it to Aja who churns out offense and really jumps off the page, especially at her peak. She also manages to really maintain that into her much less mobile years.
Selling - Aja
I think this is one where people might assume Aja runs away with it. She is highly praised for being JUST giving enough. Joe is a little more dramatic often and I think he also has that skill of giving at the right pace for the match dynamic. I'm going to give it to Aja for somehow - despite her face paint - feeling so legit in her big time selling. when she does it.
Promos - Joe
I know it isn't fair, but Joe's promos are great (esp late career) and he just lost three points by razor thin margins for me.
Charisma - Draw
Joe is the kind guy who never has to win a match and you could plug him into the main event. He will make you believe he is the most dangerous dude int he room at all times. He proved this in the WWE against men who made him look small. That is presence. Aja is Aja... so it is a draw.
Elevating Others - Joe
This is tough to say. I think Aja has some chops here, but Joe carried a lot of the weight of both ROH and TNA at certain, important points. That is a slightly different way of thinking about elevating others, but I really think Joe is good at bringing a roster up
Versatility - Draw
They just seem to have very similar levels of versitility to me. They excel at violent offense. Both worked extensively with smaller oponents, but have great matches with other hosses. Both can do some plunder. Aja probably has more great tag matches. Joe I think (stress THINK - off the top of my head) has the higher end long singles matches in the form of the old title match.
Consistency - Joe
I'm actually going to give this to Joe. I haven't seen as much of Aja's late work and Kadaveri has recently made a case that it is a positive for her case, but I have seen a little less consistency from her in what I have seen (both before and after her prime). I don't think Joe's drop off is quite as dramatic as people say and he rarely ever dips below good.
Rewatch Value - Aja
This is pretty close for me. They are two wrestlers I do indeed turn to when I just want to watch something dope, but I probably seek Aja out more often.
Bonus (Wrestling a Broom) - Joe
I'm struggling to think of a real stand out match that either has with someone who isn't at least solid. I went Joe because there was a ROH title match with BJ Whitmer that I remember liking quite a bit.
Final Score
Aja - 4 Joe - 3.5
Draw - 2
I may want to go back and change, but I was a little generous with Joe, so I think Aja takes this, but it is a little closer for me than I think it may be for most.
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Post by microstatistics on Apr 13, 2021 23:02:41 GMT -5
Yeah, this is surprisingly close. Aja seems like the easy pick at first glance but Joe has a very strong resume.
Cap makes a good point about Joe never really dipping below decent/good even during his "disappointing" post-prime.
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