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Post by elliott on Dec 2, 2020 18:43:24 GMT -5
Just watched this and I think it holds up as their best match. Not as harrowing as the Futen match, and doesn't have that sort of dystopian aura. This is a big time main event in a mostly empty warehouse. Stiff of course, but theres more depth than just the stiffness. This is their most classically paced match. Some great transitions (Ikedas thumb up the butt made me laugh). The selling stood out the most. That death valley driver is brutal 21 years later.
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Post by Cap on Dec 2, 2020 22:45:14 GMT -5
On first view (which I had to spread out over a few hours), I totally agree. This one felt like the match I have been waiting to see from them. I REALLY REALLY like them as a pair. This I LOVED. I'll come back with more thoughts, but this is the kind of thing that has a shot at my list next time, where as everything else from this pairing as felt really great, but well shy of the top 100.
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Post by elliott on Dec 3, 2020 18:31:23 GMT -5
This and the Futen match stand out as their best contenders for the top 100. This is their best wrestling match. Futen their best spectacle.
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Post by Cap on Dec 3, 2020 19:13:08 GMT -5
I would agree. The Futen match was my favorite before this one. I think the gap between the two is relatively significant (in that this is a contender for me and that one really isn't), but both are still pretty elite.
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Post by bossrock on Dec 3, 2020 19:18:28 GMT -5
Finally got to watch this one. I still think the Futen match is my favorite between them, but this is a very close second. Very strike-heavy and violent. Recipe for success.
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Post by Cap on Dec 6, 2020 10:35:07 GMT -5
So a few thoughts on why I like this match more than the others. I've been pondering this and I am not sure if this will make sense typed out like it does in my head, but here we go...
I really like Ishikawa vs Ikeda as a feud on the whole, but it is really hard for me to not juxtapose it to other shoot matches, rivalries, wrestlers that I think are far more athletic and tight with their grappling and engaging generally. Either one of the guys could murder me in their sleep even today, so it isn't a knock at all, but when I think of them compared to other high end shoot wrestlers from the 90s they really aren't on that level in terms of making their grappling look legit and believable while also being... ya know... a match. In some ways I know that is really unfair. I think there is a spectrum of "reality" in wrestling. On one end you have people more or less in a shoot that can still be read as a match and in that area you have your best, most realistic shoot matches. On the other end you have your most pro-wrestling wrestling possible. All wrestling is detached from a real fight and is manipulated to make what might happen in a fight be more interesting and legible to the audience (that is how I think at least), but - at least in this regard - it just is a matter of how far from "realistic" the style/genre/area etc are functioning. Ok... boring... everyone knows this. But I lay it out because I don't think these two are targeting the same point on the continuum as say... tamura v han. That is ok, but I often mentally hold it to that standard and in turn I find myself lower on the feud than I might expect. The brutal strikes certainly help, but there is still sort of this tension that kind of caps these at just below absolutely elite to me.
This match avoids that tension. Some of it might just be me settling into the dynamics of this version of shoot, but I think it is more that this match brings the logic of battlearts shoot into focus. The action here is relatively tight, but it is more that it just feels more engaging within the overall package of this match. To me, it is sort of like how the WWE main even style feels more engaging in something like Warrior/Savage from mania. When you see people come together and hit the style and the logic of that style out of the park it all makes more sense and just resonates. This will probably actually make me enjoy other battlearts and futen matches more and will certainly make me like Ishikawa v Ikeda matches more.
So that is a really long way of saying this match clicked with me in a way that some of the battlearts and futen matches I had seen haven't and certainly a bit more than previous matches between these two. And that is coming from someone who generally very much enjoys battlarts and futen and this rivalry.
Ok... so the match itself is incredible. The violence and the progression thereof is just awesome. Two things sort of stand out as reasons that I will likely have this on my list. Both are related to the desperation and emotion they get through via their selling and facial expression. There is a Kobashi/Misawa esque flavor to this. One of the things I love about big pillars matches, particularly Kobashi matches is that there is this massive sense that winning this match is the most important thing in the world. I suppose there are different versions of it, but I find the Kobashi version of it superior to the - say - the HBK version. This match is dripping with that sense of importance and drama. These two are always good at getting the hatred across, but they somehow sold me that this match was somehow more important. The second part is sort of a nuts and bolts part of the first. I love the way the rope breaks are used and sold at the end. It is almost Tamura v Kohsaka level in its use of rope-breaks to get that desperation over at the end. The timing and they way they were sold really stood out here. Of course the action is awesome. The strikes are stiff. I love the early kicks to the head and the punch exchange. The grappling exchanges were tons of fun as well. I loved Ikeda having a head lock in, it getting broken up and him running the ropes and coming back and getting caught in a headlock himself. Obviously, the Death Valley Driver at the end is brutal and it goes right into the t-arm bar finish. Great finish to a great match.
Ok, that is a long winded way of saying it was awesome and feels a touch better than their others.
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Post by elliott on Dec 6, 2020 12:43:32 GMT -5
Ive found its best not to think of Battlarts as shoot style. It doesnt happen here, but Ikeda would do things like the Space Flying Tiger Drop. Otsuka regularly did giant swings or dives out of the ring. There are definitely elements of shoot style. But BattlArts isnt trying to be RINGS or UWF2.0. Post modern wrestling is the best description I've ever seen for BattlArts. Ishikawa was obsessed with Inoki, not Akira Maeda.
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Post by Cap on Dec 6, 2020 13:25:23 GMT -5
I think that resonates with what I am saying, but I just gotta get out out of my head. I suspect this match is going to help me reorient myself to it
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Post by elliott on Dec 6, 2020 13:44:48 GMT -5
Absolutely
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Post by nintendologic on Dec 6, 2020 14:11:08 GMT -5
I think Battlarts can be best described as shoot style-adjacent.
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Post by elliott on Dec 6, 2020 14:12:01 GMT -5
Hahahaha thats perfect!
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Post by nintendologic on Dec 7, 2020 8:34:43 GMT -5
For what it's worth, quite a few MMA fighters have done pro wrestling moves in real fights. In fact, Genki Sudo did a giant swing in Pancrase.
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Post by tetsujin on Feb 25, 2021 8:11:39 GMT -5
Finally watched this. My favourite of their saga thus far (the only one I can think being better is the FUTEN match, the one I need to rewatch), there's a lot of brutal, clever and original offense here. Ikeda specially looked better than ever, his selling was dramatic, his ways of winning the neutral and trick Ishikawa were great (that clap before a headbutt, for example), and most of the most vicious strikes came from him.
The one thing I don't like of the Ishikawa/Ikeda matches, the one thing that always makes me not looking at them as elite-level matches ("just" very good or great haha) is that they always feel longer thay they are. Like, twice the time. And that's because their matches are so... linear. From beginning to end, they try to beat the living shit out of each other while proving they're the tougher of the two, there's really no structure, no phases, no escalation. I'm not saying that's necesarilly wrong, but when you compare it with most of these kind of "going all out with pure violence and dessire to win quickly" matches, either it's a very short sprint, or have some structure to help manage the time of the match better.
For example, Ishii and Shibata went all out on G1 23. Despite it being 12 minutes long and basically telling a "let's hit each other really, really, really hard an see who's dick is bigger" story, it had some phases (first they go all out, then they take turns, then they do ridiculous stuff like kickout out at 1 or no selling germans because they are pissed and don't wanna give any compliment to each other, then they stole spots from each other, etc). They told the story that Shibata might be the strongest (winning most of the exchanges), but Ishii have more willpower (coming back most of the times). Phases and character work. Here, that's not the case except for some Ikeda's prick attitude moments sometimes, and while I really appreciate what they do, because giving this almost 20 minute match with no different parts and going full violent climax for almost 20 minutes is insane, and making it always entertaining is even better, I always have that feeling of, you know, they're just randomly throwing stuff, there's nothing more (but nothing less).
Also, loved the ending spot, that looked too brutal even in this match full of brutal moments. I can't wait for the FUTEN match, all I remember is Ishikawa's killer punch at the very beginning. Hope they finally give me that singles MOTYC I want from them.
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