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Post by elliott on Jan 15, 2018 1:22:57 GMT -5
One thing I think we're all going to struggle with (I know I am at least) is finding a balance between a list with a ton of variety and representing multiple matches from the same feud or rivalry. With so many matches nominated and still to be nominated, and so many realistic contenders for a top 100, it would be easy to say "I'm only going to vote what I think is the best Flair/Steamboat or Lawler/Dundee" while knowing that more than one probably belong on the list, in order to represent more different matches.
Personally, I feel more inclined to go the opposite way. If I feel like 2 or 3 matches from a feud/rivalry are stone cold locks to make my list, I'm voting for all of them. It will be impossible for me, and really anybody, to make a list they're really happy with. But if I turned in a list and it didn't include multiple Funks vs Abby & Sheik matches for the sake of including a random unique matchup I don't think is as great, then for me it wouldn't be an honest list and I definitely wouldn't be happy with that.
With all of that rambling out of the way. I really wanted to lay out the feuds/rivalries I'll likely have multiple matches from represented on my list. I find stuff like this helpful for organization, as well as just interesting to think about. Matches that are absolutely going to make my list I put in italics. It looks like almost half of my list is going to come from this group of matches, and I even left off a few potential rivalries (Lawler vs Bock, Fujinami vs Choshu, Tenryu vs Hansen, that I want to rewatch before adding to this)
El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas 6 Matches - 7/18/87, 5/17/91, 5/16/92 (trios), 11/29/96 (trios) 12/6/96 (3 way), 9/19/97
Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee 5 Matches - 8/22/77, 6/6/83, 12/30/85, 3/10/86 (Tag Match), 7/14/86
Yuki Ishikawa vs Daisuke Ikeda 5 Matches - 5/27/98, 1/12/99 (Tag Match), 8/29/99, 4/24/05, 7/26/08 (6 Man Elimination)
Terry & Dory Funk Jr vs Abdullah the Butcher & The Sheik 4 Matches - 12/1577, 12/9/78, 7/15/79, 12/13/79
Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger 4 Matches - 9/7/84, 12/5/84, 7/17/85, 9/11/85
Terry Funk vs Stan Hansen 4 Matches - 9/11/82, 12/13/82 (Tag Match), 4/14/83, 8/31/83
New Japan vs UWF 3 Matches - 3/26/86 (10 Man Elimination), 5/1/86 (5x5 Gauntlet), 6/12/86 (Singles)
Stan Hansen vs Carlos Colon 3 Matches - 1/6/87, 2/28/87, 3/14/87
Kiyoshi Tamura vs Volk Han 3 Matches - 9/25/96, 1/22/97, 9/26/97
Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori 3 Matches - 4/2/93, 12/6/93, 3/27/94 (Tag Match as Partners)
Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki vs Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada 3 Matches - 11/26/92, 4/11/93, 12/6/93
El Hijo del Santo vs Espanto Jr 3 Matches - 8/31/86, 4/10/88, 5/14/92
Genichiro Tenryu vs Riki Choshu 3 Matches - 2/21/85, 1/28/86 (Tag Match) , 2/10/90 (Tag Match)
Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada 3 Matches - 6/3/94, 6/5/95 (Tag Match), 12/6/96 (Tag Match)
Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat 3 Matches - 2/20/89, 4/2/89, 5/7/89
Bret Hart vs Steve Austin 3 Matches - 11/17/96, 3/23/97, 7/6/97 (10 Man Tag)
Ric Flair vs Barry Windham 3 Matches - 2/14/86, 1/20/87, 4/11/87
Ric Flair vs Terry Funk 2 Matches - 7/23/89, 11/15/89
Perro Aguayo vs Sangre Chicana 2 Matches - 10/84 (4 Way Elimination), 2/28/86
Kiyoshi Tamura vs Yoshihisa Yamamoto 2 Matches - 9/21/98, 6/24/99
Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu 2 Matches - 6/5/89, 12/6/89 (Tag Match)
Kiyoshi Tamura vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka 2 Matches - 6/27/98, 2/4/04
Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler 2 Matches - 3/23/81, 4/6/81
Freebirds vs Von Erichs 2 Matches - 7/4/83 (6 Man Tag), 11/24/83
El Satanico vs El Dandy 2 Matches - 10/26/90, 12/14/90
Dump Matsumoto vs Chigusa Nagayo 2 Matches - 8/28/85, 11/7/86
Jerry Lawler vs Austin Idol 2 Matches - 3/23/87 (Tag Match), 4/27/87
Jushin Liger vs Naoki Sano 2 Matches - 8/10/89, 1/31/90
Jerry Lawler vs Dutch Mantell 2 Matches - 3/22/82, 3/29/82
Kaientai Delux vs Michinoku Pro 2 Matches - 10/10/96 (10 Man Tag), 12/16/96 (10 Man Tag)
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Post by gordi on Jan 15, 2018 3:01:02 GMT -5
I'm leaning in the other direction, in that right now I feel like I want to submit a final list with maximum width even if that comes at the expense of depth. So, I feel like I want to submit a wide variety of "best of their type" "best of that style" best of that promotion" "best of that time period" "best of that rivalry" "best of that worker" matches, and avoid repetition as much as possible.
Otherwise, I'm gonna have, like 80 or so AJPW matches from around '88-95....
But, how to choose between those two great M-pro multi-man tags? Which Flair vs Steamboat? WHich Dump vs Chiggy?
Cutting down to 100 won't be easy!
And: How far do I need to extend my concept of width vs depth? Do I NEED to have a TNA match? A recent NJPW match? Any post-Austin WWE stuff?? Is my list incomplete without some French Catch?
When it comes down to deciding between tossing, say, Joe vs Styles vs Daniels on the list at the expense of a 1980s All Japan tag match... it's maybe gonna come down to my mood on that day.
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Post by KB8 on Jan 15, 2018 9:31:31 GMT -5
I'm more on elliot's side of the fence. I've done a few year-long Top 100 Matches polls on another board (WWE, WCW and 00s) and for all of them I've represented multiples of at least one match-up. I do like the idea of maybe only having one match to represent a specific pairing, but there's no way I could leave off one of Eddie v Rey from Halloween Havoc '97 or the Smackdown! match from '05. There's no way I could only vote for one Han/Tamura match, or one Lawler/Dundee, or one Ishikawa/Ikeda, Santo/Casas, or any number of All Japan match-ups.
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Post by bossrock on Jan 15, 2018 9:57:11 GMT -5
The greatest feuds of all-time really should have more than one truly standout match. I personally could not vote for only one Steamboat-Flair match and not include the others because all three are classics. I want my list to have variety but I also want to make sure I cover what I think is truly the best. So, that means a lot of Misawa-Kobashi matches, pretty much every Colon-Hansen match, the Steamboat-Flair rivalry, the Funk-Flair rivalry, etc.
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Post by microstatistics on Jan 15, 2018 17:50:33 GMT -5
Ikeda vs. Ishikawa, Misawa vs. Kobashi, DreamRush/Dreamslam II, Vader vs. Sting, Liger vs. Sano, Tamura vs. Han, Misawa vs. Kawada/Taue, Hokuto vs. Kandori
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Post by joeg on Jan 15, 2018 20:39:51 GMT -5
I don't think this should be like the AFI list that leaves off Godfather II because it included Godfather. I will have 4 Flair vs Steamboat matches on my list.
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Post by fxnj on Jan 15, 2018 23:57:49 GMT -5
I'm a big AJPW 90's guys, so this is something I've thought about a fair amount. I've tried giving other styles a chance, but every time I always find myself returning to the classics from that period over whatever is the current cool thing. I did a quick run through and there's about 50 matches just from the 90's that would be pretty difficult for me to leave off and 20 more from other points in the promotion's history that I'm likely to include as well. Throw in the top NJPW and shoot-style stuff and there's not a whole lot of spots left.
I agree that the most important thing in a list is honesty. I can't put my name behind a top 100 list if it isn't legitimately what I believe to be the top 100 matches ever and not just a sampling of what I dig from a bunch of different styles. Lack of diversity on my list doesn't mean that there's a lack of diversity in my viewing.
One thing I've thought about is that the system of matches requiring 3 people to support them might force me to diversify my list. Some of my favorites don't seem to be doing so hot, and I'm sure I'm not the only one in that situation.
A solution I'm considering is making a top 150 list for my personal reference, but still turning in a top 100. That way I have some backups in place if some of my matches don't make it through and I also have more room to represent different styles.
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Post by Cap on Jan 17, 2018 21:15:58 GMT -5
I feel like I won't really think much about leaning toward variety until maybe the final 20 or so. maybe at that point I will be picking between 50-60 matches for those final 20 spots. At that point I may try to add some diversity if it isn't already in my list, but only as a tie breaker. That could change over time.
Feuds with multiple matches I will be considering as of right now....
Misawa/Kobashi (5 matches) - 1/20/1997, 10/21/1997 10/31/1998, 6/11/1999, 3/1/2003: I can't imagine less than 2 of these on my list. I completely get whey some people find it excessive. To me it is the high point of the style. I think they were made for each other and I could honestly watch them forever.
Misawa/Kawada (6 matches) - HDA v Misawa/Kobashi 12/3/1993, HDA v Misawa/Kobashi 5/21/1994, 6/3/1994, HDA v Misawa/Kobashi 6/9/1995, HDA v Misawa/Akiyama 12/6/1996, HDA v Misawa Akiyama 12/5/1997: Likely only two of these get on, but I'll think pretty hard about all these.
Kobashi/Hansen (2 matches) - 4/16/1993, 7/29/1993: both are stone cold locks really
Santos/Casas (4 matches) - 7/18/1987, 5/17/1991, v El Dandy 12/6/1996, 9/19/1997: Real chance all 4 of these show up. Cutting any of them would be tough.
Flair/Steamboat (4 matches) - 2/20/1989, 3/18/1989, 4/2/1989, 5/7/1989: Not sure what will happen here. I can see all four on there. I can see just two making it. I'd be surprised at less than that, but I am interested to see how this feud holds up to the project.
Dundee/Lawler (3 Matches) - 6/6/1983, 12/30/1985, 7/14/1986: One is more or less a lock, not sure where the others will fall.
Austin/Hart (2 Matches) - 3/23/1997, 11/17/1996: The mania match is a lock. I love the SS match, but not as much as some people do.
Ok... I lost steam. There are quite a few others (Dandy/Satanico, Flair/Funk, Nigel/Danielson, Kansai & Ozak/Toyota & Yamada, Steamboat/Savage, Tsuruta/Tenryu) but I am tired of looking through my database haha. You get the point...
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 18, 2018 11:37:17 GMT -5
I could see two Okada/Omega matches making my list and the third one would probably be a bubble candidate.
I could also see two matches with Joe/Styles from TNA being in contention.
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Post by shrike02 on Jan 18, 2018 13:08:40 GMT -5
I think Valentine/Santana is a really great feud. Most of their matches are consistently 4* or better, with one or two that might be 5* or thereabouts. Santana/Savage too, including a match from Toronto that's easily 5* in my book. Note to self, make sure that's nominated.
There are several Tsuruta feuds that qualify for me as well.
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Post by thepumalives on Jan 18, 2018 19:54:09 GMT -5
Off the tip of my tongue, these are the rivalries that I think will have the best chance at having multiple matches on my ballot:
Okada/Omega: Three absolutely tremendous matches that will all be in my top half, with the Dominion match being my new #2.
Triple H/Foley: The Royal Streetfight has a spot for sure, the Hell in a Cell will also get some consideration. I’ll have to rewatch their stuff from ‘97 but I remember it being pretty good.
Hardyz/Edge&Christian/Dudleyz: I’m pretty sure the ladder matches from No Mercy ‘99, WM2000, SS 2000, and WM X7 will all be on there, but I’ll also be watching the RR 2000 tables match, NWO 2000 tag match, and the Unforgiven 2000 cage match. I’ll also be watching everything else these guys did with each other because I love this rivalry.
Triple H/The Rock: I may be the high vote on their Iron Man match, but their ladder match is also getting some consideration and I’ll have to rewatch Backlash 2000.
HBK/Undertaker: I think there will possibly be three matches between these two on my ballot; Bad Blood ‘97, WM 25, and WM 26.
I’ll have to finish this post later tonight, but it will include Angle/HBK, Angle/Eddie, Eddie/JBL, and a few more after some rewatching.
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Post by microstatistics on Jan 20, 2018 13:48:10 GMT -5
I'm a big AJPW 90's guys, so this is something I've thought about a fair amount. I've tried giving other styles a chance, but every time I always find myself returning to the classics from that period over whatever is the current cool thing. I did a quick run through and there's about 50 matches just from the 90's that would be pretty difficult for me to leave off and 20 more from other points in the promotion's history that I'm likely to include as well. Throw in the top NJPW and shoot-style stuff and there's not a whole lot of spots left. I agree that the most important thing in a list is honesty. I can't put my name behind a top 100 list if it isn't legitimately what I believe to be the top 100 matches ever and not just a sampling of what I dig from a bunch of different styles. Lack of diversity on my list doesn't mean that there's a lack of diversity in my viewing. One thing I've thought about is that the system of matches requiring 3 people to support them might force me to diversify my list. Some of my favorites don't seem to be doing so hot, and I'm sure I'm not the only one in that situation.
A solution I'm considering is making a top 150 list for my personal reference, but still turning in a top 100. That way I have some backups in place if some of my matches don't make it through and I also have more room to represent different styles.I was thinking about this as well and I feel we probably don't need to worry about it, not right now atleast. This is just the beginning and there is still a long, long way to go and over time enough people should have got to your match. Luckily, you only need two more people to support your match and they don't even have to consider it a classic, merely good and worthy of a list. Also in the worst case scenario, you can ask people to check out the matches you want nominated and/or do an exchange (you watch this and I'll watch that). Which I guess is the point of the nomination system.
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Post by joeg on Jan 21, 2018 1:42:47 GMT -5
Off the top of my head without looking anything up here's my list of feuds with multiple matches contenders- Flair vs Steamboat- 4 to 5 matches
American Dragon vs Low Ki- 2 to 4 matches
Lawler vs Dundee - 3 to 6 matches
Lawler vs Dutch Mandell 2 matches
Lawler vs Terry Funk 2 matches
Liger vs Sano - 1 to 3 matches
Dynamite Kid vs Tiger Mask - 1 to 3 matches
Hansen vs Colon- 2 to 3 matches
Austin vs Hart - 3 to 4 matches
Misawa and Co vs Kawada and Co 4 matches at least, maybe as many as 10
Misawa and Co vs Jumbo and Co 3 matches at least, maybe as many as 10
Flair vs Windham 3 to 4 matches
Misawa vs Kobashi 2 to 5 matches
Funks vs Abdullah and Sheik 3 to 6 matches
Terry Funk vs Stan Hansen 4 to 5 matches
Funks vs Jumbo and Baba 2 to 3 matches
Volk Han vs Tamura 3 matches
Santitio vs Casas 3 to 6 matches
Okada vs Tanahashi 2 to 4 matches
Choshu vs Fujinami 2 to 5 matches
Choshu vs All Japan/ Tenryu 2 to 5 matches
Okada vs Omega 2 to 3 matches
Freebirds vs Von Erichs 2 matches
New Japan vs UWF at least 2 or 3 matches
Kobashi vs Hansen 2 matches
Yammamoto vs Volk Han 2 matches
Jumbo vs Tenryu 2 to 3 matches
Steamboat vs Savage 2 to 3 matches
NOAH Juniors vs New Juniors 2 to 4 matches
Crazy Max vs M2K 2 to 4 matches
Michinoku Pro vs KDX 2 to 4 matches
Eddie vs Rey Jr 2 matches
Undertaker vs HBK 1 to 3 matches
Midnight Rockers vs Buddy Rose and Doug Somers 1 to 3 matches
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Post by brockobama on Jan 28, 2018 19:51:38 GMT -5
I'll probably have multiple matches from Hashimoto's various feuds and I'm more than a little mad that none of you brought any of them up.
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Post by bossrock on Jan 31, 2018 9:52:19 GMT -5
Hashimoto is actually someone I'm looking at specifically for this project.
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