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Post by Cap on Sept 5, 2019 21:02:14 GMT -5
Yeah... Sangre Chicana had a really good couple days there.
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Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 21:16:22 GMT -5
Also quick question about the heel refs, just how prevalent are they in Lucha? The only lucha event I've watched back to front was last year's Triplemania, and the heel ref in the mask match really annoyed me. Wanted to come back to this. The answer is complicated. Its not really prevalent unless its really prevalent? It picks up more in the 90s with AAA, but you'd see it beforehand as well obviously. I kind of agree with Cap's point about it being timed well here and not the worst heel ref stuff you'll ever see. But its by far the best match ever with the heel ref BS and it is jarring in a match this good to see the ref literally hold Chicana's arm back from punching Perro. Its worth being ready for.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 8:28:53 GMT -5
One of the ripsnorterest, barnburnerest matches ever.
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Post by Cap on Jul 9, 2020 8:43:43 GMT -5
Uncledave... I don't know where you came from, but you are speaking my language. Welcome to the board.
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Post by Cap on Aug 18, 2020 6:53:29 GMT -5
From my rewatch project on 8/17/2020 Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair – 9/23/1983) Current Rank: 2 Trending: Even Things get a little less interesting at the top here because well… I don’t think anything is going change. There are very few matches I remember where I was when I watched them for the first time. Both of these top two matches are among the few. I can’t say anything about Sangre Chinana vs MS-1 that hasn’t been said by better, more articulate fans than I. It is, to me, the perfect lucha brawl… blood, grit, emotion, violence. I don’t want to take anything away from MS-1 in this. He is a wonderful rudo who sets this all-timer tone early and keeps it moving throughout… but this is a story told through Chicana. His selling, movement, comes backs… that is where the narrative beats hit. This is a master class in getting the most out of every movement, punch, submission. Nothing is wasted, nothing lacks emotional weight. You don’t need to do all that much when you do it this well. This is perfect wrestling. Full Post: gweproject.freeforums.net/post/8466
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Post by cactus on Nov 19, 2021 6:02:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I've always struggled with this match.
I love the structure of the first two falls. MS-1 takes out Chicana in the first fall, beating him until he bleeds and picking up an easy win after a top rope splash. The beating continues during the second, but Chicana is able to swing the momentum of the match with one lucky punch. That was a glorious transition and it ends up giving the babyface a countout win to finish the second fall. Sadly, I thought the wheels fall off this one during the last fall as they spend the majority on the ground selling their blood loss. Lads, it's great that you're selling your injuries, but too much downtime is going to take me out of the match. MS-1 taps after Chicana gets on his submission. Both guys played their roles well and I thought this was a very good match overall, but I'm not seeing this as a GOAT match or anything.★★★¾
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Post by puropotsy on Mar 21, 2023 21:20:25 GMT -5
Fantastic stuff. I’ve watched this a few times before and was always distracted by whether it was the greatest match of all time and was impacted by expectations. It is not my GME but will quite possibly finish high. The first two falls are a little loose on direct action and focus on admiration of the bleeding that is happening. But we do have that old lady that wipes the blood off Chicano’s face and then takes a drag of her cigarette when the camera does a close-up of her. She should get the 1983 WON Non-Wrestler of the Year award. I don’t know if they had that award then but it’s hers. They could even name it the “Smokin’ and Blood-Soakin’ Old Lady Memorial Award.” Anyways, the third fall had me all in. I swear I don’t remember so many dives when I’ve watched it before, much less MS-1’s butterfly suplex and missed senton. The submission win for Chicana is gold. Great pro wrestling.
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Post by lemming on Nov 24, 2023 12:56:37 GMT -5
I voted this #34.
Another famously great match. I watched it early on when dabbling in lucha and I wasn't quite so how to assess it at first but I found the rawness and intensity of it fascinating and I remember watching it 3 times over in full that same week because I kept thinking about it. Classic heat and comeback segments, amazing selling, excellent use of smoking grannies and a really visceral feel to the whole bout. I think getting into this match specifically first also then helped me appreciate and enjoy other lucha brawls more easily afterwards (even if there are few on quite the same level as this one).
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Bah Gawd
DUD
Omega/Naito G1 27 For Bombs, 6/9/95 & 6/3/94 for Drama, Okada/Shibata for Stiffness,
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Post by Bah Gawd on Feb 2, 2024 23:31:40 GMT -5
MS-1 subtle knee drop when going to the ropes is so realistic, I wish more wrestlers did that to say they are really in a struggle, that it takes everything in their gas tanks to do this move. Also MS-1 sell of a missed swanton bomb like move where he drags his bloody head of the already red mat and flopping like a fish is so sick lmao.
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Post by midwesternlariart on Feb 26, 2024 5:23:55 GMT -5
This match, with no regard to how I feel about it in terms of quality, fizzles around the third fall. There are very few general expectations for a wrestling match once you start really exploring the impossibly vast landscape of our medium, but I think a universal one is pacing. It's not unique for a wrestling match to peak early. Think Shibata vs Akiyama. There practically still is a traditional climax at this end of this match, so long as you view the fulfillment of the apuesta stipulation as a sort of unsanctioned 4th fall where Chicana steps over the line to enact one more just and violent beating. This isn't the picture of inadherence that many matches with similarly auteristic legacies typically resemble.
The inalienable image I kept arriving upon was two people getting into an incredibly messy argument. Raw feelings and exposed wires in the open air over an embarrassingly minor dispute. You're most likely aware of the violent, bloody, & hateful legacy of this match and every bit of that is true, but at a certain point in the 3rd fall, Sangre Chicana and MS-1 just want this to be over. They cover each other, they shoot for flash pins, they stop trying to roll each other into the ring to continue any kind of vengeful onslaught. They recognize that they've gone too far. The beauty of pro wrestling is that, unlike in real life where an argument that has overburdened the people within can be patched up with cool temperament and a restorative communion, you can't just leave this. This is an apuesta. You will never be able to talk your way out of this. It just can't be done.
It isn't just a sympathetic situation, it's also am empathetic one. You have to watch them struggle and it isn't gratifying. It's hard to watch them choose to continue to kick out, fight all the way back, and come up short again. Watching MS-1 go up for a top rope sunset senton because he wants this whole thing to be over so badly only to miss and destroy his body was crushing. Every muscle in my back tightened and strained watching him scream and bend after hitting the mat like that. The whole ordeal of this fall changes what could have easily been a very satisfying ending watching MS-1 have his head shaved by Chicana, who was mauled and tortured himself here, into a deeply uncomfortable moment where Chicana forces MS-1 down to have his hair clipped, if only to make sure that this wasn't all for nothing. A cautionary tale about how revenge is just a different kind of suffering.
The mechanical aspect of this is more talked about and is nearly as important. The first 2 falls primarily consist of either punching, diving, or being thrown into a different hard corner. MS-1 isn't immaterial, being a really good prick heel, throwing tremendously hard punches, and then hitting a fucking disgusting gusher during Chicana's comeback. It's not quite in the shadows of Chicana, but it certainly takes a backseat. Physical charisma and body language are some of my favorite things to talk about in wrestling and Chicana put on what on it's own could be an entire case study of the subject here. The way he looms and roams, the way he falls out of the ring, his entire "man possessed" approach to everything he does complete with punching himself full on in the face to keep going is so interesting. Every reaction to every shot he takes is interesting and different and the wild swinging hands he smashes into MS-1's brain are equally as varied and are obscenely violent. He's a man running out of time before the bell rings when he's attacked and it feels that way at nearly every moment. I don't think that this match can reach the emotional points it does without MS-1 absolutely showing up and delivering, but Sangre Chicana goes beyond what was neccesary into one of the greatest performances of the 20th century full stop and by proxy, beyond that.
A reminder that expectations shouldn't be an exact road map, even if you plan on meeting them in any artistic medium. Violent, bloody, well constructed, complicated, and emotional. A match deserving of its legacy.
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