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Post by microstatistics on Apr 4, 2018 0:41:24 GMT -5
I liked Cap's Flair vs. Misawa thread so here's another question: Kiyoshi Tamura vs. Jerry Lawler vs. Kenny Omega
I think this is a good indicator of where you sensibilities lie: Matwork or Brawls or Modern High Impact/Workrate
For me it's no brainer Tamura as I like matwork (particularly shoot-style) above all else and his peak stuff is out of this world. There will be atleast 5 Tamura matches on my list.
I'm much low on brawls but Lawler is fantastic at constructing great, minimalist slugfests. LLT 85 vs. Dundee is a lock.
I know some people hate the modern high impact offense/workrate style and others think it has produced some of the best matches ever. For me it's really hit and miss: when everything comes together, the matches are excellent but they can be poor when selling and transitions suffer. Omega is probably the personification of the style. I think Okada vs. Omega III is far and away the best match in that style and I'll rank it for sure.
Note: Remember the question is who produced better matches worthy of Top 100, not who the best wrestler of the 3 is
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Post by elliott on Apr 4, 2018 2:01:21 GMT -5
I picked Tamura and it took my about half a second. I love Lawler. I had him #6 overall in GWE. He's got several matches that are locks for my top 50. But Tamura might have 5 matches in my top 20 and could get 3 in my top 10. When it comes to absolute top tier matches (things I'd consider for the top 25) Tamura and Santo are easily my top 2 guys.
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Post by bossrock on Apr 10, 2018 23:12:07 GMT -5
Tamura is someone I really haven't seen much of at all so I'm definitely checking him out. Lawler is weird for me. Guy checks off basically every box for what makes a great wrestler, but there are only a handful of his matches that I've really "loved". The Funk No DQ and Empty Arena matches are locks for my list, but I'm not sure if anything else is. I do plan on rewatching the barbed wire match with Dutch though, love that one.
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Post by elliott on Apr 10, 2018 23:32:17 GMT -5
Tamura is someone I really haven't seen much of at all so I'm definitely checking him out. Here's the Complete and Accurate I did for Tamura at PWO. prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32721-kiyoshi-tamura-complete-and-accurate/I would recommend: Everything vs Han (all 3 matches are locks for my list) Everything vs Kohsaka (Especially 6/98, a top 5 contender for me) Everything vs Yamamoto (Especially 6/99 a top 10 contender for me) vs Ilioukhine from 1/98 (Top 30 Contender) These are all in RINGS and will absolutely all make my list. I don't remember the date of the 2004 match against Ito but it is nominated and will make my list. I'm also considering his 2005 match against Josh Barnett and the 6/10/94 match against Vader has a shot at coming in between 90-100. |
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Post by bossrock on Apr 11, 2018 8:48:50 GMT -5
Tamura is someone I really haven't seen much of at all so I'm definitely checking him out. Here's the Complete and Accurate I did for Tamura at PWO. prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32721-kiyoshi-tamura-complete-and-accurate/I would recommend: Everything vs Han (all 3 matches are locks for my list) Everything vs Kohsaka (Especially 6/98, a top 5 contender for me) Everything vs Yamamoto (Especially 6/99 a top 10 contender for me) vs Ilioukhine from 1/98 (Top 30 Contender) These are all in RINGS and will absolutely all make my list. I don't remember the date of the 2004 match against Ito but it is nominated and will make my list. I'm also considering his 2005 match against Josh Barnett and the 6/10/94 match against Vader has a shot at coming in between 90-100. Awesome, thanks! And I think I did see the Vader match. Your comparison of it to a horror movie was great. |
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Post by KB8 on Apr 11, 2018 9:31:09 GMT -5
My initial reaction was Lawler, as I figured he'd be one of the three or four most prominently featured wrestlers on my list. But then so will Tamura, and as a tie-breaker of sorts I think Tamura will have more in my top 30, even if Lawler's best match will likely be higher than Tamura's best.
At this point I'd probably say high end RINGS is my favourite style of wrestling and nobody did high end RINGS better than Tamura. Career v career Lawler produced more good matches, in no small part because he had about fifty times the volume of matches, period. But on a 100 Greatest Matches list, Tamura probably shades it.
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Post by Cap on Apr 13, 2018 8:30:16 GMT -5
I am going to hold my vote for right now because I need to dig into Tamura actually. Shoot is my one glaring blind spot (among many smaller ones).
The notion of Omega vs Lawler is a funny one though. I like it and I think that is the brilliance of this project. For me it is probably Lawler because at least two of his matches are easy ***** locks for me and he has a number of other contenders as well. However, I am also a big fan of Omega. I am just not sure he has anything that will make my list. He has a few matches I will consider, but modern NJPW isn't my favorite style so even though I rate some of his best work highly it might get nit-picked out of my list.
That comparison sort of goes back to my post about brawls. I love brawls probably more than anything else in wrestling so those matches are going to get preference generally from me. Lawler had some great brawls.
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Post by Cap on Aug 18, 2019 8:50:33 GMT -5
Give me Tamura on the whole. His average match quality is off the charts high. While Lawler is a great brawler. Tamura is in the conversation for the very best of a given style (one of my favorite styles) and Lawler isn't really in that conversation for me with regard to brawls. Especially in the context of his particular project, Tamura wound up with more matches than Lawler and Omega combined.
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Post by bossrock on Aug 18, 2019 9:41:40 GMT -5
I've seen the term "great match theory" thrown around before and I think it definitely applies in the context of Lawler vs. Omega (still haven't seen enough of Tamura to really comment on him). Omega had more matches of his make my list than Lawler and he wrestles a style I find more appealing, but I would still say Lawler was the better wrestler.
Lawler has very much always been a guy who checks off a lot of boxes for what makes a "good" wrestler and while he's had plenty of matches I enjoy, there's not really a whole lot that would make a top 100 or even 200 list for me The minimalist Memphis style has admittedly never been my favorite. Still, Lawler was a terrific seller, a terrific babyface, and a terrific puncher. But when it comes to best seller, babyface, and puncher, he probably wouldn't be my number 1.
When it comes to Omega, he wrestles a more maximalist style in more maximalist promotions like NJPW that I enjoy. However, he's not particularly sound from a fundamental standpoint. His selling is spotty when it comes to comebacks and limb work (though he's far from the only offender and certainly not the most egregious), his matches are a bit too bloated at times, and his character work and facials are ridiculous at times. That being said, he's had a number of really good selling performances (see the Okada and Naito matches), is a very underrated bumper, and is arguably one of the greatest from an offense standpoint. It's so hard to find a well-measured opinion of Omega as he's either one of the greatest ever or an overrated Meltzer darling and hack. I think the truth lies somewhere in between.
So ultimately, Lawler over Omega as a wrestler but I find Omega matches more entertaining.
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Post by elliott on Aug 18, 2019 15:25:57 GMT -5
But when it comes to best seller, babyface, and puncher, he probably wouldn't be my number 1. Who is better at fake punching than Jerry Lawler? |
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Post by bossrock on Aug 18, 2019 16:33:01 GMT -5
But when it comes to best seller, babyface, and puncher, he probably wouldn't be my number 1. Who is better at fake punching than Jerry Lawler? I guess if it comes to "fake" punching it would be him, but punching overall I would say Tenryu (hardly fake, heh). |
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Post by Cap on Aug 18, 2019 20:32:00 GMT -5
Lawler is definitely on the really short list of best punchers I think. His working punch was awesome. Even punching has a lot of dimensions obviously, so I'm not sure he would be my runaway pick as best puncher. I might prefer Dundee because I think he threw better combos. I also prefer Sangre Chicana's over the top punches, particularly his timing. Funk, Tenryu, and Vader come to mind as guys I'd at least consider. But yea, Lawler has a real strong case to own the category and I wouldn't blame anyone for picking him #1 with a bullet.
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Post by bossrock on Aug 18, 2019 21:24:51 GMT -5
Carlos Colon had a really good punch as well. I've always preferred him as a face to Lawler.
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Post by elliott on Aug 19, 2019 2:21:06 GMT -5
Lawler is definitely on the really short list of best punchers I think. His working punch was awesome. Even punching has a lot of dimensions obviously, so I'm not sure he would be my runaway pick as best puncher. I might prefer Dundee because I think he threw better combos. I also prefer Sangre Chicana's over the top punches, particularly his timing. Funk, Tenryu, and Vader come to mind as guys I'd at least consider. But yea, Lawler has a real strong case to own the category and I wouldn't blame anyone for picking him #1 with a bullet. This is precisely why Lawler would be my runaway pick for best punching. Not surprisingly, Phil Schneider has the best quotes about Lawler's punching: “Of course one of the great things about any Lawler matches is the punches, and they are amazing. Jabs, uppercuts, straight rights, hooks, punches on his knees, punches from the mount, diving punches, jumping punches. Lawler has more variety on his shots than anyone, ever, and they all rule.” And “We always talk about Lawler's punches but he may be the greatest mounted punches in the corner puncher of all time. That is a spot that is almost always bad looking, but Lawler looks like he is killing people. “ |
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