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Post by Cap on Jun 5, 2018 8:10:44 GMT -5
I decided to move this to my own thread so i am not bogarding the other match comparison thread, which hopefully can pick up into a more fluid conversation at some point. Round 1 - The Top of the Mountain This is the first in what I hope will be a semi regular series of posts as I watch and rewatch matches as part of this project. I am planning to watch matches in blocks, comparing and contrasting 3-5 matches directly. Sometimes I will try to group matches based on a theme and sometimes I will try to juxtapose very disparate matches. Regardless of the grouping I want to dig into the details a bit and talk through what I love about a match as not only a way of positioning the match, but also as way of unfolding my criteria for greatness, which is not always easy to articulate in clear terms. For each post I am going to look at qualities (determined by the grouping) across matches and give some final thoughts on each match individually. I am also building off a draft of my list so I will be thinking about movements and which direction matches are trending for me. For my first post I am starting more or less at the top. I want to look at some all time great hate-filled brawls across time and space. Three of these matches are in my top 5 and the fourth is an outlier in the 40s. The matches are: Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair – 9/23/1983) Shinobu Kandori vs Akira Hokuto (4/2/1993) Stan Hansen vs Carlos Colon (Texas Bullrope Match – 1/6/1987) John Cena vs Umaga (Last Man Standing – WWE Title – 1/28/2007) Given the matches in question I am going to look at urgency (a criteria I will look at a lot), story, violence, and drama. UrgencyUrgency is a thing I talk about a lot when I talk about great matches. It might be he single most important thing to me when it comes to what really takes a match from great to elite. Urgency manifests itself in a number of ways, but in all I use it to refer to how important winning the match (for whatever the reason) seems to be to those involved. Is it important? Is it meaningful to the wrestlers in the ring? Is it used to make the match meaningful? All four of these matches have urgency in spades. To start at the top, Sangre Chicana and MS-1 are out to kill each other. The offense here is relatively simple, but everything has passion behind it. The hatred carries the match early, but it gives way to desperation, both very effective. The desperation later in the match so clearly punctuates this feeling of urgency and that flow of emotion might be the greatest strength of this match. MS-1 spends a stretch of the final fall trying desperately to just get the pin so he can get out. It's a beautiful bit of low-key heel work. He is no longer in there for the fight. He now wants out of this because the hero is starting to get the better of him. You see a very similar move from Hansen in his match with Colon. Hansen started the match with eye gouging and choking and general Hansen brutlaity, but as their match wears on he becomes a little less concerned with mauling the smaller Colon and a lot more concerned with doing anything he can to touch the corners and get the hell out of there. This leads to one of my favorite spots in all of wrestling when Hansen is pulled back before he can touch the final corner and he just sits and cries. In these two matches “urgency” evolves as the motivation of the wrestlers evolve, but the real key is that there is never a moment where every movement isn’t going to winning the match. For their parts Kandori/Hokuto and Cena/Umaga do urgency in a slightly different way, a more strait up hate fueled way. Kandori/Hokuto is made of absolute hatred and murder. It starts at such an alarming clip, taps right into legit concerns about Hokuto, and went into an absolute war that saw the two go toe-to-toe till the bitter end. It is clear from the first 30 seconds of this match that both of them are leaving something in the ring. That is magic, chemistry, and intensity. In some ways Umaga and Cena tap into that same ethos, but to a slightly lesser extent I think. They are two larger than life characters working to absolutely end one another for good. However, this was the only match of the lot that felt like it lost some momentum here and there. This sort of happened as they worked toward spots in the last 1/3rd of the match, the kind of thing I would only even register as I am nitpicking for this project. StoryTo me these matches are all – at least in the ring – very much examples of the simplest of stories, a hero fighting back and overcoming a physically superior foe. MS-1 is a deceptively good athlete and really shows that here. He is fast. His punches are quick and as they turn up the heat he is leaping across the damn ring to try to finish Sangre Chicana. When Sangre Chicana rolls under the leaping MS-1 later in the match its sort of phenomenal how far MS-1 gets. The ass beating he gives Chicana early is visceral. While MS-1 is deceptively athletic, Hansen and Kandori are anything but deceptive. Hansen is a force of nature from jump street, so fast, so powerful. He is like the boss in a video. He moves around the ring like some shit is about to go down and as soon as he gets his hands on Colon he puts a beating on him, setting up Colon’s signature fire-comebacks. Kandori on the other hand is a bit more stoic, but no less clear in being a god damned killer. Even though Hokuto blasts Kandori first, it doesn’t take long for Kandori to establish that she is a badass and it was going to take Hokuto’s everything to beat her on this night. I think the story being told by Cena and Umaga in this regard is very much its strength. Cena is still the underdog in the logic of the match, but they tell that story through what Cena does rather than through him taking an early beating and firing back. Umaga’s control stretch is there, but it isn’t the anchor. Instead, Cena is more or less throwing everything he has at Umaga from bell to bell. He launches stairs at Umaga’s head. He is using monitors. He knows he must do murder to win this match. Umaga and Cena aren’t the first two to tell this story in this way, but they execute this version of it about as well as anyone. ViolenceIn each of these matches I think the violence speaks for itself, but each one has something somewhat unique about the way it “does” violence. It is rare to see a type of violence that feels unique and interesting (maybe outside of deathmatches), but that is exactly what we get with Umaga and Cena. The steel steps being tossed and the monitor shot to the head were incredibly visceral spots, but it is when the turnbuckle comes off that you know this is something different. I think it is hard for the WWE to accomplish this. It must be organic (ie not when they are trying desperately to do so). Additionally, if WWE does one thing in big matches really well it is visuals. The visual of Cena choking Umaga at the end was incredible, jarring stuff. Unfortunately there is a small stretch here where I think this is a real weakness. In the final third of the match they are going back and forth a good bit and doing so in a way that lets them do some setting up. The quick changes of control takes a little something away as we don’t get the same level of selling in this match that we do in the others. Part of that is of course the time period, but I think even against its more contemporary peers this match lacks a little in getting over just how damaging this match was to each guy, even if that is only for about 4-5 minutes in the match… again, a very nitpicky point. It is the simplicity of MS-1/Chicana and even Colon/Hansen that sets it apart. Both matches rely on a feeling of chaos. The crowd in PR is white hot for the match and Hansen and Colon somehow create a feeling of a complete lack of control in a match that is somewhat overly convoluted and organized. In this strap match both men are tied together and they have to win via a very orchestrated and careful set of circumstances. Yet this still feels completely out of hand. It is masterful how they blend the structure of the match (which is never lost) and this feeling of chaos. Colon even manages to throw Hansen’s face into the ref’s god damned shoe, which sounds on paper like the most convolute shit ever. Through their pace and their ability to react and get the most out of every movement, these two crazy sons of bitches made it work. The same holds true for MS-1/Sangre Chicana. My favorite move in all of wrestling might actually be Sangre Chicana’s hay-maker left hand. In getting the first fall he hits 3-4 left hands and a tope after taking a pretty serious ass whoopin, but it felt just fine. They got their work done with less. Sometimes less really is more. The simple, direct violence of this match is well documented and really is something you must just soak in to fully appreciate. Kandori and Hokuto are women wrestling in Japan in the 90s so it was never going to be about “less is more”. It was going to be about stiff shots and lunatic bumps. I always say a great Joshi match isn’t complete until you think someone died. One noteworthy moment is that amazing table spot early that looks like a pretty simple pile driver, but showing the blood and the dent in the table after provides such an implication of violence, one that always sticks with me. Kandori and Hokuto beat the shit out of each other and its utterly captivating. Watching these matches I realized something I always knew in the back of my mind: there is probably no real chance that a match without blood could ever be my #1 match. That might be unfair, but that's just the way it is. Blood just adds something to a match that is so hard – maybe impossible – to get in any other way, especially when you are trying to sell hatred. These matches are all selling hatred and they honestly just wouldn’t be the same without blood. DramaI was really taken by how each of these matches created a unique ethos that would serve as the foundation for their drama. I can’t express how much I love the start of the Sangre Chicana/MS-1. There are cops with batons. There are two women – Sangre Chicana’s mother (I believe) and maybe his sister(someone can correct me if I am wrong) – helping him early in the match, trying to wipe the blood from his head. This feels like a fight in the streets or a bar more than a match. Hansen/Colon has a very similar feel, like something that would weirdly break out in some dive bar off the beaten path, something that that could get out of hand at any moment and take everyone down with it. The strap is used in a way that really adds another layer of danger that feels like it might provide finality (even though it didn't). Kandori and Hokuto play off the real life injuries of Hokuto and the real life badassery of Kandori. It blurs lines and uses that to accent the world-class violence and push it to the next level. It manages to – in a completely different context create a feeling not dissimilar to the 80s brawls. As far as drama I am not sure any match (here or elsehwhere could outright top this). Cena and Umaga is the most complicated here. It is a 2000s WWE match, so there is a different feeling to it and it some ways the same thing that gives it some drama is sort of the thing I don’t like about it. In classic WWE fashion we are getting the monster savage vs the All American Hero, a clash of personalities. When the larger than life personas angle is done well it is awesome. Here… it is awesome. I have talked above about how the way they do violence and tell a story elevates the match on the whole. That is all built on the dynamic of the larger than life characters. However, it still included a character dynamic that I don’t like and have never really cared all that much for. I really enjoyed Fatu as a wrestler and I think this is an all time performance from him, but the Umaga character never did much for me. In short, this is a match that hinges on something I am not a huge fan of in wrestling, but the execution was so good that I can’t deny the results. Final Thoughts
Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair – 9/23/1983)Current Rank: 1 Trending: Even/Down-ish When a match comes into a project like this penciled in as number one without much real question in my mind, there is no place to go but down. I am not sure this rewatch session actually moved this match at all, but it did make me think there is a chance that it could be dethroned, particularly by Kandori/Hokuto. I feel like I came away just a little less taken by the last half of the match, just a little less invested in every move. Maybe this comes from seeing it who-knows how many times, maybe it was my mood, any number of variables could move the needle on a match just hair. Regardless, I came away feeling like the gap closed between this and the other top shelf matches. It isn’t enough for me to replace it atop the list just, but it has made me envision a world where this might not be my #1 with a bullet. This is a masterful piece of work either way, required viewing for wrestling fans as far as I am concerned. It is case study in maximizing every move. Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t call either man or the match itself physically limited; it is just that this match built upon visceral emotion. Truly, this is wrestling at its finest. Shinobu Kandori vs Akira Hokuto (4/2/1993)Current Rank: 2 Trending: Even-Up-ish Much like the other two top 5 matches here, I remember exactly where I was the first time I saw it. My wife and I used to set up an air matress in our living room when we were hung over on a Sunday and chill all day and watch movies. I got up before her one such Sunday, set up the mattress and pulled this up. From that slothful morning forward I have regarded this as a true masterpiece. I didn’t necessarily expect to come away from a rewatch with a higher opinion of it. Much like Sangre Chicana vs MS-1, we aren’t talking about a definitive move. I am not ready to take the eraser to the top of the list and make the switch, but I felt slightly more invested in the story Kandori and Hokuto were telling here. This match is violence and intensity personified. It is to me something singular and something really impossible to articulate in terms of its greatness. The bigger shift here might be my opinion of Hokuto. Don’t get me wrong, I think she is an incredible wrestler (top 100 of all time for sure), but Kandori is my favorite female wrestler ever (and would rank absurdly high on my GWE list), so she was always the star of the show to me. In this rewatch I found myself really captivated by Hokuto, moreso than ever before, bringing them a little closer and elevating the match every so slightly. Stan Hansen vs Carlos Colon (Texas Bullrope Match – 1/6/1987)Current Rank: 5 Trending: Even I dug into this feud around the time I joined the PWO boards (around the summer of 2015) when I was also digging into wrestling on the whole a little more deeply, getting into the 70s and especially the 80s, back into indie wrestling, and into promotions that had historically been blind spots to me. I believe I posted something then about how much I loved this match over on PWO and nothing has changed since that then. This is peak Hansen dropped into the frenzy of 80s wrestling in Puerto Rico. Its both fun and masterful all at once. It is everything I want in my wrestling and more, despite the fact that I am generally not a fan of strap matches with the corner finish. It's a perfect combination of chaos, violence, and pro wrestling cheese. I have seen the criticism by Matt D – a rightful one I think – of Hansen that he is only giving to certain people and has a tendency to gobble some guys up. That may be true, but it makes it so much more meaningful when he does give. This one would probably be hard pressed to break the top 2, but I would be surprised if it was outside the top 10 when the dust settles. . John Cena vs Umaga (Last Man Standing – WWE Title – 1/28/2007)Current Rank: 47 Trending: Up I have only given 6 matches from the WWE/F full marks. Given that I haven’t yet given 100 matches the full five stars, those six matches will all make my list. Right now I believe this is the 4th of those matches. Based on that positioning with regard to other WWE matches that, Umaga/Cena might be trending up. I came away thinking this might just be the best WWE match ever. At worst, it probably belongs above at least one of its promotional kin. This accomplishes the feeling of importance, of two men truly trying to destroy one another and that isn’t always easy, particularly in the more contemporary wrestling climate. I found Umaga particularly impressive here. His timing, cutoffs, and the snap he put on his offense set the tone for this match. In turn, everything in this match felt massive, giving us a WWE match that cuts through the pack and really stands out. This was certainly the weakest of the four matches I watched this weekend, but it didn’t feel out of place next to them and that is high praise. Its tough to say where this will land at the end, but I did come away thinking very highly of this match.
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Post by Cap on Jun 12, 2018 21:29:40 GMT -5
Round 2 - Escalation Through Violence Round Two of my rewatch/compare project brings three very different matches together for a few reasons. First, while the matches in question seem very disparate and divergent I selected them based on a theme: drama through the escalation of violence. Ok, so maybe that is all wrestling, but I felt like these bouts were particularly marked by the escalation of violence as the basis for the story being told. The second reason for this grouping is that it provides an opportunity to compare and contrast matches that – at least on the surface – have little in common, an important part of this process. Finally, I have only relatively recently started to dig into classing British Wrestling and this is the first real test for how well that holds up next to other styles more securely fixed in my understanding of greatness. This week’s matches are: Walter vs Timothy Thatcher (Atlas Title – 1/28/2018) El Hijo Del Santo vs Espanto Jr (Mask vs Mask – 8/31/1986) Steve Grey vs Johnny Saint (1/28/1980 [air: 2/2/1980]) For this round I am looking at urgency (as always), execution, escalation, and drama. UrgencyTimothy Thatcher and Walter might just be the two most believable wrestlers alive in the year of our lord 2018. Everything they do is designed to look real, to take this shit seriously, and to make it look like they are out to best another man. It is the premise behind their stable (group? camp? not sure what to call it), Ring Kampf. The real strength of this match is that it is two men with a similar mindset taking full advantage of that little detail. You don’t need hatred to get that feeling of urgency from a match, all you need is two wrestlers who want to win and commit to that desire. From Thatcher refusing the shake Walter’s hand to start the match to Walter chopping Thatcher in his fucking face in the closing frame, this match hinges on competition driving the action. It isn’t completely dissimilar to Grey vs Saint, another bout built not on personal animosity, but on two men doing everything they can to best the other. My favorite thing about the top shelf classic British wrestling is that everything is so snug, so crisp. You can see it in those like Regal and Finlay, born from the style and destined for global success. That intensity means there isn’t a second where this match loses its pace, its… ya know… urgency. I was particularly impressed by intense and quick everything is without losing body language that so clearly tells the story of Grey working from behind to best Saint. This was established with those early headlocks that Grey couldn’t escape. That really felt like a tone setter that they lived up to throughout. Santo and Espanto is a bit of a different beast all together in this regard. The history here goes back a long way and is quite complex, but when the match starts there is almost a sort of silent respect in the way they move and the way they build off of one another. While the falls more or less progress with the expectations of the genre, the execution is really good here at least in part because everything has a crispness to it. I can forgive predictable falls in a lucha match if they are done with passion if this match has anything, its passion. I will say that if there is one aspersion I would cast on this match is that there is a little too much down time in some places, down time that doesn’t feel necessary and isn’t adding to the drama for me. Maybe it was the lack of punches, fewer than you might anticipate in a classic lucha brawl. Maybe its just the pacing. Maybe it was just my mood watching this time. It is tough to say. When they are engaged, its fire and intensity, but there are just few places – particularly in the second fall – where I feel like it wanes just a bit. In an odd way, this issue of urgency is both a strength and perhaps the only minor weakness. The third fall is where the magic happens. This isn’t just about winning, its about hurting the other man and I think both succeeded in getting that message across. All three matches have teeth to them and they all accomplish that by telling different types of stories and in turn having slightly different orientations to why they are doing what they are doing, why they are competing. There is a viciousness in Santo vs Espanto that the other two don't touch. Thatcher v Walter approach that realm with violence they are willing to dish out to each other as friends and I love the crispness and intensity of Grey vs Saint, but nothing beats hatred when it comes to making me suspend my disbelief and nothing creates hatred like putting masks on the line. ExecutionExecution means very different things in the context of each of these matches. Judging any one of them by the standards of the other would be senseless. Let my love for lucha (particularly her wonderful brawls) go unquestioned, but I will admit that the threshold for me suspending my disbelief is a little higher with lucha because the way moves are often executed doesn’t always “look” believable. It is a common complaint I have heard from those who “don’t get” the style. However, for me it is rarely an issue, especially when the masks are ripping and the blood is flowing. In the context of mid 80s lucha bloodbaths, the execution here is quite good. Espanto is tossing Santo around with some ill-fucking-intentions here. There is a real crispness to much of this match. On one of Santo’s comebacks he hits some nice dramatic knees before sending Espanto through the ropes after kicking his legs out from under him in a way that looked like it could have buckled the rudo’s knees. Little stuff like that, where things look good and have some flare or legit looking danger to them go a log way with me. They mostly keep things simple, within their wheelhouses, nothing super fancy, just a solid, well executed fight. If Santo vs Espanto’s strength comes from violence and malice, Grey and Saint excel in what might more classily be considered execution. Everything is so fluid here, downright beautiful, but it is all so dug in on in a way that gives it an edge too. For my money, Steve Grey is the best of the classic British wrestlers. He works from underneath so well. He is outmatched here early on and the way he pulls off his fight is such wonderful combination of selling, timing, and fluid athleticism. The near falls right before Saint catches Grey were such a perfect example of this. Its a series of moves I have seen 1,000 times, but in this context I found it so much more compelling, partially because this is a context where a fall could happen as opposed to say modern indy, but you can’t undersell how fluid and tight wrestling just makes everything matter more. In terms of a conventional notion of execution, this blows the other two out of the water. Thatcher vs Walter fall somewhere in the middle. Execution is a real strength here despite the fact that there are a few places where it looks like things don’t come out quite as crisp as they wanted. It required a nitpicky for it to make much difference, but I think they are clear enough. That doesn’t bother me much in general and in fact when those moments are covered well and responded to quickly I think becomes a strength. I say this a lot, but fights are sloppy and in turn I generally like my wrestling to reflect that sometimes. Perfection is not always desirable. When it counted, these two were on and they were willing to lay into one another to make sure everything looked great. Its hard to stand out in the modern indy wrestling landscape, but a balance between simple wrestling and stiff execution made this stand out to me. Escalation These matches were brought together because they all stood out as matches that escalated well. I won’t go off base too much here, but I recently watched the Omega/Okada matches from last year in preparation for their Dominion showdown. My main take away on those matches is that I didn’t like the first two as much as some because while they were on their way to greatness eventually things stopped escalating and the match actually felt like it lost my attention and my investment. I still liked both matches a lot, but they were never going to be all time classics in my mind because in the closing frame when I should be more excited than at any point in the match I found myself just ready for it to be over. That is not a problem that any of these matches have. In fact, quite the opposite is true. It is in the final 1/3rd or 1/4th of each match that I am glued to my screen. Actually, in each case I was starting to think I had overrated the match until near the end. The scenes of Walter chopping Thatcher in the face, of a bloody Espanto getting up after diving onto Santo before both roll in and he throws his head into Santo, and the quick exchanges that lead to Grey picking up his second fall so closely after his first… these felt like the best moments of the match because everything led to them. The value of escalation can’t be understated. These matches tell stories that progress logically and have narrative coherence. They do this through violence and competition, which is why I fucking love wrestling. I think escalation is a real strength of each match. Thatcher/Walter was the most even, consistent match when it comes to raising the intensity and violence. Espanto/Santo reached the highest levels. Grey/Saint was the most detail oriented. Drama Escalation, when done well, always provides drama. In turn, each one of these matches demands emotional investment when I watch. They tell clear stories and they tell them well. I won’t go on about the story being told by Santo and Espanto. The lead up is long and complicated, a family(esque) feud that could be traced back 20ish years that led these two here putting their masks on the line. However, you don’t need any of that background to understand what you are seeing, to enjoy what they are doing. It's a fight… universal. As I said above, t moves through the motions of the genre with Espanto getting the upper hand early and the first pin, followed by Santo firing back and getting a flashy pin in the second fall, and capped off with a wild and bloody shit kicker to finish it off. The story of two wrestlers trying desperately to hold onto their masks, masks that represent their family’s pride is not one that needs a lot of explanation. I find the other stories more compelling, particularly Thatcher v Walter because there is a sort of structural similarity that works well here. This is a match between tag team partners and even though their entire shtick is built around the idea that they value competition above all else, this needed something to convincingly get them to the levels of violence they hit. Enter Timothy Thatcher’s world class facial expressions. This match doesn’t have falls, but it certainly has chapters. Walter dominates the first frame, laying in his offense and absolutely decimating his tag team partner. It should be noted that we see more than our fair share of chops, but Walter doesn’t lean too heavily on them here. If he has one weakness in 2018 it is that sometimes, only sometimes, he can lean on that chop and limit his offense some I think. The second chapter begins when Thatcher goes hard on Walter’s hand. Thatcher goes from selling intense pain with intense facial expressions to his laser-focused psycho murder glairs. While the offense is key to this shift, I think Thatcher loads this match with emotion in through the way he expresses throughout. The obligatory post spot leads to some really convincing hand work in the second frame. Thatcher turns the intensity on in a massive way. He may never be Santo in terms of selling a hero’s comeback, but Thatcher marching around the ring not only got a tired Progress crowd on its feet it split the room where I expected pretty solid Walter support. The final frame, beginning sometime after Walter really gains control (for more than an exchange or two) again and goes into a brutal back and forth that builds and builds until it crescendos. I love the story of two men who start by wanting to win but leave a little more in the ring with every exchange to they move right up to the cusp of hatred. It isn’t the first time it has been told, but it is one of the better versions. Getting people to buy the intensity without the visceral hatred is something difficult, but it is pulled off well here. This brings us to Grey vs Saint, who are out there telling a very simple but nuanced story. I said earlier that Steve Grey is my favorite wrestler from this period and style, but Johnny Saint is probably the ace and the most readily impressive wrestler of the lot. He just moves with such crispness and confidence. He is incredible. He completely outmatches Grey early on and the care and nuance that they put into where and when Grey gets advantages is fantastic. My favorite part of this is that it zigs when you think it will zag. Once Saint gets the first fall you might assume Grey has a long road ahead, but he gets two relatively quick falls in the 6th and the 7th. They aren’t easy, but it doesn’t feel like its an up the gut layout. The story does a lot of work. First, they were establishing Grey as a challenger; this being his second win over Saint with the implication being that this proves it wasn’t luck. It also, I think, does a lot to establish their relationship, where they are skill level wise. You don’t need a lot of background to get it. Grey isn’t good enough to best Saint in most exchanges, but when you aren’t as good as your opponent in every position you struggle and find ways to win. You grind; you change the pace. You learn to win here and there before you learn to dominate. Grey is his equal even if not in the optics. Each match tells their story in slightly different ways. Santo/Espanto use malice and blood. Thatcher/Walter use violence and respect. Grey/Saint use competition and iron sharpening iron. Final Thoughts
Walter vs Timothy Thatcher (Atlas Title – 1/28/2018)Current Rank 96 Trending: Even Walter has been – to my mind – the best wrestler in the world over the past two years or so. His floor is so high, but this is the closest he has come to putting on an all timer. For his part, Thatcher is, even in the midst of many fans rediscovering their appreciation for him, somewhat underrated. Both men shine here and produce something that feels like it will stand the test of time. That said, there is really no way to know if that is true, so there is a certain cap on it. I can’t see this climbing any higher. This last 5-10 spots – where some spots will be reserved for matches and/or wrestlers near and dear to my heart – seems about where it belongs. This is a great, hard hitting match that doesn’t let itself get tempted into excess while still providing plenty of action to sink your teeth into. Two professionals are in there plying their trade and telling their story through their chosen form. They make a match that will contend for one of my personal favorite spots and I think has a really good chance of winning one. El Hijo Del Santo vs Espanto Jr (Mask vs Mask – 8/31/1986) Current Rank: 19 Trending: Up/Down I don’t know what to do with this match. I might have come away less sure of this than any match I have approached specifically for this project. I loved it the first time I saw it and I didn’t really feel much different about it this time. I did, however, feel like it didn’t grab me quite like it did the first time, making me think 19 might be optimistic. I mean, that is high high praise. That said, it sticks with me. When matches stick with me a day or two after I watch them I know there is something more for me to appreciate in them. Two days after watching it again and that is how I feel. The final run here is the stuff of absolute legend. I am becoming increasingly convinced that El Hijo Del Santo is maybe the best wrestler ever and this is an all-time hate filled performance from both men. Still, I am not necessarily moving it right now, but I can honestly imagine it moving up or down at this point. This one might need to get the side-by-side treatment with some of the true top shelf outings (if there is time) for me to get a proper feel for where it will land. Steve Grey vs Johnny Saint (1/28/1980 [air: 2/2/1980])Current Rank: 44 Trending: Down My favorite WOS/Classic British match, I was really looking forward to seeing how this stacked up to stuff I love and have a better feel for. It wound up being sort of a good news/bad news situation. The good news is that I found it just as captivating and compelling as the other matches in this comparison. The bad news is that when all else is equal I am at my core a vampire. I want blood or at least hatred in my wrestling. This is a beautiful piece of work that tells a compelling story, but there isn’t any malice in it. It doesn’t have the teeth and that isn’t an indictment on the style as much as it is what these two were trying to do on this night. The match itself holds up in all the ways I expected it to, but I came away from this wondering if there was another match form the time period and region that might actually jump this, in turn shifting this down when it is all said and done. All the same, these are two of the greatest wrestlers to grace the earth with their skill, so I can’t imagine this falling into the triple digits
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Post by elliott on Jun 13, 2018 23:05:53 GMT -5
Since you're talking so much about urgency, I'm gonna need you to start checking out the Tamura classics. "Urgency, escalation, execution and drama" are literally 4 of the major Tamura traits.
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Post by Cap on Jun 14, 2018 8:29:07 GMT -5
Yeah... I have mentioned before that shoot is probably the one "major" blind spot for me and I actually plan on diving in a little next week. I have friends in his weekend so I am not sure I am going to get to a round of watching/writing, but you can expect to see me talking some Tamura soon. I am also almost always super high on stuff when I first watch it so I expect I will be singing some praises when the time comes
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Post by fxnj on Jun 14, 2018 23:13:13 GMT -5
Don't mean to advertise, but if you ever do a deep dive into the RINGS stuff, I'd pretty highly recommend supplementing your viewing with the reviews over at tkscissors.blogspot.com/ The guy there does a great job breaking down all the techniques used in the matches and the unique climate of the time period.
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Post by Cap on Jun 15, 2018 7:30:26 GMT -5
Don't mean to advertise, but if you ever do a deep dive into the RINGS stuff, I'd pretty highly recommend supplementing your viewing with the reviews over at tkscissors.blogspot.com/ The guy there does a great job breaking down all the techniques used in the matches and the unique climate of the time period. Much obliged. I will give it a look when I dig in.
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Post by Cap on Jun 26, 2018 11:09:56 GMT -5
Round 3 – Cocaine and Fist Fights: 80s U.S. Terrorist Brawls Right or wrong, few things are more “American” – that is, woven into the fabric of the culture – than the spirit of Sex, Drugs, and Rock-n-Roll. Now before we get off the rails (pun intended), of course I am not espousing drug use. Rather it is the ethos of this (un)holy triad that makes it so Americana. It is about rebellion, catharsis, and a rejection of what might be considered proper toward the end of carving your own path. Its taking risks, getting in a little trouble, and not caring either way. Its live fast and unfortunately it is sometimes die young. Its Risky Business, Han Solo, punk rock, and sometimes its wrestling. The heyday of the U.S. territories always struck me as sort of embodying this spirit. The 80s were gritty, ground level wrestling. It was blood and guts, in your face entertainment. It didn’t hurt that many wrestlers took the sex and drugs part pretty seriously. In fact, if it weren’t for the wild disparity in popularity and resonance, Sex, Drugs, and Wrestling might work just a well. So, while I am not saying everyone in these matches was strapped to a runaway white bullet train (though most probably were), it's a time period filled with men that embody a certain ethos, one romanticized in different ways in the American imagination. We love rebels and in turn our films, shows, and books are filled with rebels of all shapes and sizes for us to identify with. In the 80s people gathered all over the country, in different regions and with different backgrounds, and they lost their ever loving-loving minds with absolute bloodlust at the wrestling shows. From the Mid West to Texas to the Northeast to Memphis to the Deep South… wrestling could get gritty in the 80s and fans ate it up. This is a time and style of wrestling that I truly love and one of my favorite parts of it is how simultaneously universal and regional an 80s brawls can be. For this week’s review I grabbed 6 of my favorite brawls from different territies in the cocaine-caked 80s in the U.S: Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee (Loser Leaves Town vs Hair – Southern Heavyweight Title – 12/30/1985) Roddy Piper vs Greg Valentine (7/9/1983) Sgt. Slaughter vs Iron Sheik (Bootcamp Match -6/1/1984) Terry Gordy vs Killer Khan (Texas Death Match – 11/22/1984) Nick Bockwinkel vs Wahoo McDaniel (AWA Title – 8/26/1983) Jim Duggan vs Buzz Sawyer (No DQ – 11/11/1985) Given that all of these matches have plenty of “urgency” I am going skip my go-to quality for this week and discuss violence, drama, and holy shit moments ViolenceThe true story of these matches and rewatching them back as a group was a tension between violence and drama. It's a less is more era and what each match was able to achieve with what they were doing always stood out. So I have to start with what each match was tangibly made up of. I wouldn’t necessarily say that any of these matches lack in violence, but they certainly vary somewhat. Bockwinkel and Wahoo had a fairly minimalist brawl. In fact, much of the match features Wahoo throwing hands and Bock selling his god damn ass off like he was getting shot in the face with a one of those t-shirt guns. Fortunately, I could watch the AWA ace sell for a broomstick, but I could also watch Wahoo beat up that same broomstick. They are able to escalate the violence mostly through what they hit each other with. Establishing a sense of grit and hatred early, they move from punches and sleepers to throwing each other into hard stuff and swinging chairs (for the finish). Its simple, low flash wrestling and it works wonderfully. Somewhat similarly Lawler and Dundee is damn near a boxing match in places, but the rub here is that these are two world-class punches. They don’t need to do anything else. While Lawler is praise for his punches almost universally, I think Dundee’s performance here is the greatest punching performance I have ever seen. His combos are incredible. He is brilliant in the way he stays in the blind spots, targets the good eye, (trying shut it), and then the bad eye when he needs to fend Lawler off. It is just incredible. Of course the big difference here is how this match achieves a sort of absolute chaos as we get table spots, Lawler flying off the god damned bleachers, exhausted bouncing off the ropes, gnawing, kicking… this one excelertes through chaos as it gets more visceral and brutal. Speaking of dudes who bring the hatred and the violence from the gun, WWE Network just dropped this fucking Piper/Valentine classic out of nowhere that the kids are buzzing about on the intertweets. I had to watch it twice to make sure I was really seeing what I was seeing. To me, this stacks up with the best brawls of the decade. Piper is a world class walking tall babyface at the beginning. They kick and punch and bite and claw. They foreshadow their more famous dog collar match with some ear punches. This reads more like a legit fist fight than any other match here.. While I think the action start to finish was better in a few other matches, this match might have built to a crescendo as well as any. Piper gets creative and tries to cut Valentine’s head off with the barricade rope by wrapping it around his neck and just sawing away. The only match might rival that in terms of pure grit and aggression was Buzz Sawyer vs Jim Duggan. Like Lawler/Dundee and Piper/Valentine, you don’t need to necessarily know the story to “get” that these two grown ass men are full of hate and trying to do murder to one another. No match in this flied (and few period) feels more like it could have taken place at some bar or around some bonfire a few miles down a back road. It spills in and out of the ring effortlessly. They blast each other into whatever is around. Its kicks to the balls and jumps from behind. They fight so hard that even a struggle over a head to the turnbuckle feels like life or death. Buzz tires to fucking crush Duggan with a giant table pretty early here, starting with a pretty high level of violence and never really backing off. The real money here is in the post match brawl as all New Orleans is completely incapable of pulling these two bad asses apart. The brawl to the back is all time chaotic, visceral wrestling. The final two matches to discuss here take what I see as a slightly different approach. These two matches felt like they played for a bigger crowd (more on this later) and what this meant for both was less of a pacey aggression filled match and more of a gritty slugfest that gave you some time to digest it. For Kahn vs Gordy I think the story here is timing. This is probably my favorite Terry Gordy performance just in terms of timing and pacing. His comebacks are excellent. He fires up at just the right time, throwing delightful haymakers. My favorite moment of the whole match is him punching Kahn right as he got up from the 10 count and Kahn just freezing mid fall. It was such a brilliant little moment that gave us urgency and over the top wrestlingness all at once. Kahn really digs in on being the villain and they capture a good dynamic with a fairly limited set of moves. While Kahn’s biting and spikes to the throat add some diversity as I watched this block, they did feel somewhat limited in terms of believability here. That is ticky-tacky though on my part, but in in watching 6 of the decades best brawls I came away thinking this probably only topped one in the actual violence category. The same cannot be said for Slaughter vs Sheik. Holy shit do these two want to kill each other. When I first watched this match years ago I thought it was overrated. I came away from this watch thinking I am a fool and not to be trusted. They sell for the cheap seats much like Bockwinkel, but maintain a level of visceral hatred by swinging for the god damn fences with every shot. Sarge is bound and determined to throw himself over the corner and blast his face into that ring post. Sheik hid a fucking belt in his trunks and of course they whip the shit out of each other with it (among other things). This match brings the weapons and violence in the most varied way of the lot. All this leading to the boot spots that would carry the story late in the match. Where I don’t necessarily think of WWE brawls as the most brutal, this at least held pace with the best of the decade and brought some diversity that I really appreciated. DramaEach of these matches leans heavily upon the aesthetic of wrestling in the region to create drama. That aesthetic is dependent upon population, lighting, production, venue, etc… what kind of product they were selling. If you boil it down it is sort of a matter of how each territory was selling what wrestling is to their audience (at least in the context of this particular match). Once again, Gordy/Kahn and Slaughter/Sheik feel a bit different than the other matches. The action, the violence is slowed down just a touch and spread out. In turn, this plays upon all parties involved as sort of larger than life… titans more than men. Kahn and Gordy feel plays out like war of monsters. If a bad guy like Killer Kahn comes to town you send your bruiser in after him. They throw blows at one another that might kill a mortal man, but these two bear men just slowly wear down, little by little. Where it lacked comparison with regard to the tangible stuff violence, I think this sort of excels in the drama department because it is a war of attrition. By the time they are struggling over a simple fucking suplex soaked in sweat and blood. hey are rocking some truly captivating wrestling at that point. Sheik and Slaughter do the same thing to an extent, but where as Gordy and Kahn are monsters, this match features two clear personas. Its New York. Its big time wrestling, baby. It's the big stage. They had a marine march around the damn ring with the flag before the thing got started for fuck sake. This is show business and they are selling a battle for American pride. As I said above, these two swing for the fences and really animate this with hatred and malice from the start despite feeling like this is more on a pedestal that down in the trenches with the people. That only builds as each blow feels like it gets us closer to that point where one man just wont get up. The hostility spread out lets one soak in these made up nationalistic stakes. I find this sort of synthetic nationalism a bit eye rolly (and always really have, even when I was young), but its hard not to get swept up in it when done well like it is here. In a way this is perhaps where Bockwinkel and Wahoo is lacking most. It is a match that aesthetically reaches for that larger than life ethos. Bock carries himself like a champion. Of everyone I watched in this round of matches, no one feels like a bigger deal than him when they come out to the ring. Heenan is considering throwing in the towel. A championship is on the line. Everything here feels like it is done in the pursuit of that big time feel, at least trying to land somewhere between the clash of titans in Texas and the quasi-xenophobic theater in New York. The problem is, it just doesn’t get there. Maybe it is because it is a single shot cam and no commentary, but this feels like a match that could have gotten further with a little more blood and guts, in the trenches wrestling and little less playing big. Of course it isn’t to say that these three matches don’t capture what it means to tell a story through violence. They do! Otherwise, I wouldn’t be talking about them. But I think there is a dividing line here. The three matches I just discussed are violent brawls that are presented as contests on a grand stage. The other three are fistfights that happen to take place in and around rings. The stakes are no less significant in one over the other. The drama is no more or less palpable. One group gets you there by selling you a wrestling match in the style of a brawl. The other gets you there by making you feel like you are watching two men fight one another on a wrestling show. It's more than a matter of semantics. Let me put it this way. Think about a time you were in or around a fistfight (if you haven’t been just trust me). There is a rush of adrenaline and a feeling of chaos. Things happen fast. They are sloppy and uncoordinated. No one is waiting around to see what happens next. Its movement, attack, defend, and then eventually its over. They aren’t neat, clean, or coordinated…. at all. These final three matches feel much more like they were inviting the viewer (particularly the live viewer) to feel as if they were witnessing a fight. No match achieves that more than Buzz Sawyer and Jim Duggan. Part of is that these two dudes (especially Sawyer) are just so fucking believable. Buzz Sawyer is that dude at the bar or some state fair that is going to bully people for no good reason and 99% of people won’t be able to do a thing about it. Duggan is that 1% of dudes that can and will do something about it and you want to go to war with that man if need be. Its out of control. It feels like anyone might become collateral damage at any point. In a way it more resembles a world class Lucha brawl than many of its American counterparts. This chaos is sold to the moon when the action doesn’t stop for the bell. The bell here is incidental. Someone happened to put a match structure around this but neither man seem to care about a wrestling match in the least. As these two are steamrolling the locker room and letting out primal screams in the back they are putting on a master class in how to achieve drama and emotion through animosity and violence. Nothing is settled and it doesn’t matter a bit. I would actually argue that Piper and Valentine pull off something very similar in their match. Piper especially brings a swagger and urgency to this match that establishes hate and never lets off the gas. By the time they get to the point where piper is trying to choke Valentine to death the audience is frantic. They want Valentine’s head and they want Piper to take it. Both matches carry a sort of primal energy that can still hook fans as they watch on devices these wrestlers could have never imagined 30 years ago. All that said, Dundee and Lawler might veer somewhere to the middle of this convoluted spectrum I have created, but I think ultimately this falls on the side of a fight. Its built around an increasing sense of chaos as Lawler turns this ugly. Between his bum eye and Dundee’s superb combos and footwork, Lawler has to turn this into a brawl if he has any hope of winning. He is like an outmatched team in the World Cup that isn’t going to win with a billion passes and world class touch. Has to rely on some Hail Mary breakaways, some tough tackling, and a little luck. Lawler has to take it out of the ring and get some tables involved, take it up the bleachers (which backfires). It is that fight that drives the narrative here and gives this some teeth and makes it my personal favorite of the Lawler/Dundee rivalry. Holy Shit MomentsIn my mind, one of the hallmarks of a great match is a moment, a holy shit moment. It isn’t necessarily a spot (though it can be) as much as it is the culmination of everything in the match that produces that instance that elevates everything. In many ways, the “holy shit moment” is what separates the good from the great and the great from the elite. Some of these matches lack that moment. Gordy and Kahn never really the mark to me. There were plenty of notable moments – from the suplex struggle to the staggered Kahn after just beating the 10 count, but nothing that quite punches me in the mouth and brings this to another level. The same can be said for Bockwinkel vs Wahoo. The finishing chair shot – an act of desperation for an almost flash KO – was great and approached what I am talking about, but when put next to some of the other matches in this group it is still found very much wanting. Only one match leans on a single spot to create its big moment, but ultimately it lead to an extended period of elevated drama. Lawler falling off a fucking set of bleachers felt like a “oh fuck something went wrong” moment for a second. Its jump-off-the-couch-and-scream level silliness and everything after that felt like the stakes were raised. It was simultaneously the peak of the match and the kick off a stretch that would harness that peak to create high levels of investment. The degree of difficulty here is really high because it is very challenging to maintain the high notes once you hit them. The other three matches in question build to create very different types of holy shit moments at or near the tail end of their match. More accurately with regard to Duggan and Sawyer, it comes well after the final bell rang. The violence and drama grew through the match, but it was when they spilled to the back and Buzz Sawyer is letting out primal screams from some combination of pain, anger, and humiliation that I’m left with nothing to do but sit back and absorb the emotion. It might be the highest emotional high of the 6 matches and it is only possible in the grungy fist-fight aesthetic of Mid-South in New Orleans. Piper and Valentine came damn close when Piper decided cutting Valentine’s head off with rope was more important than winning the match. It is a cringe worthy spot that is accented by the bloodthirsty onlookers who might as well be cheering on their best friend at their local dive bar. Slaughter and Sheik, as discussed above, were dealing with a slightly different atmosphere, a little less grunge, but no less grit. In classic New York fashion, the theater and drama are on full display here. To me, this match builds to the moment both men crawl on their hands and knees to get that boot near the end of the match. It is the pivotal moment. It is the moment the hero reaches the gun before the villain. It is the righteous ideal of America giving its all to defeat its enemies and the moment you realize its going to be fine. It is something simple and legible that taps into some of our most tried and true stories of good and evil. Once Slaughter grabs the boot the end is virtually foretold. All that’s left is to bask in the spectacle. That sort of storytelling is so powerful when it is done right. It is why you don’t need all the movez to achieve greatness, but lets not kid ourselves; this isn’t exactly easy to pull off, which is why this match is so brilliant. Final Thoughts
Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee (Loser Leaves Town vs The Dundees Hair – Southern Heavyweight Title – 12/30/1985)Current Rank: 16 Trending: Even Of the Memphis Wrestling holy trinity of LLT matches between Dundee and Lawler, this is my favorite. It’s ranked high, really high. In all reality it might move down a spot or two. When I think of it in comparison to another match I recently revisited in Espanto Jr vs El Hijo Del Santo (19), I see them in very similar terms. I love the match, but it might be susceptible to getting jumped because it got such a prominent spot on my first draft. Regardless, it will likely wind up around this genera tier. The match’s strengths are the crisp and unique punch exchanges and the sense of chaos that worked beautifully into the story they were telling. Its weaknesses are few, so it will really come down to the degree to which I am ultimately invested in what they are doing vs my investment in other matches. This represents to me the best this time and place had to offer and really captures why Lawler particularly is so celebrated in many circles. Roddy Piper vs Greg Valentine (7/9/1983)Current Rank: 68 Trending: Down I am really glad I threw this match in with this lot. It may be 35 years old, but it is getting some recency bias from me. I still come down on the side of t his being an absolute classic match, certainly belonging in the same conversation with the best brawls of the decade, but I think it will trend downward as at least two matches here (and plenty not discussed in this endless post) jump it. The energy and violence are excellent. The finish is top shelf, but when picking knits it doesn’t quite achieve the same levels of awe-inspiring greatness as many matches currently rated below it. That said, if you know anyone who remains stubborn in their belief that Piper was little more than a good talker, show them walking tall Piper here getting a room full of North Carolinians to cheer on attempted murder. There isn’t a jury in the state that would have convicted him if he succeeded either. Sgt. Slaughter vs Iron Sheik (Bootcamp Match -6/1/1984)Current Rank: 73 Trending: Up I mentioned earlier that I thought this match was somewhat overrated for a long time. This is precisely why I rewatch and I do so in juxtaposition to other great matches. The match holds up and then some. It exceeded my expectations in terms of action and drama. It got and held my attention from the beginning. Its a brawl that stands up next to those from regions with a much more favorable in-ring reputation on the whole, but does so in a way that never loses its larger than life feel. Sgt. Slaughter might be the best big match worker of the 80s and this is probably his best work. It has everything you want from wrestling: emotion, violence, good/evil, and a satisfying finish. This will shoot up my list a fair amount. Terry Gordy vs Killer Khan (Texas Death Match – 11/22/1984)Current Rank: 89 Trending: Down I love Terry Gordy and I am not sure why. I mean, I named my damn dog after him which is pretty stout praise. Maybe it is because I am from a rural area and knew a lot of guys like Terry Gordy. Maybe it is because many of those guys have become my best friends. I always joke that I make sure to have at least one big ass kicker friend in every city I’ve lived in… ya know, just in case. Regardless, Bam Bam has a soft spot in my heart, particularly when he was in his physical prime in the 80s. He is just so much fun to watch. That dude, doing the partying he was doing, should not be able to move like he does. This match has always been a favorite, at least in part, because it is a big one-on-one main event level match where he really gets to flex his in ring chops. He rarely got that in Texas where he was probably hottest in terms of a charicter, though he would get more chance to shine in Mid-South, so this feels like a treat. That all said, I am not sure it is one of the best 100 matches ever. Even at 89, I can’t help but think this winds up slipping down and eventually off the list. I still love it and think it is world class stuff (again, pun intended), but this has moved into fringe territory and will likely be on the outside looking in. At best, this might get one of those final 5 spots reserved for great matches I just personally love. Nick Bockwinkel vs Wahoo McDaniel (AWA Title – 8/26/1983)Current Rank: NR Trending: Down This match was – at best – up for fringe consideration and in all likelihood it has lost that. Like any match even considered for this project, this is still great and I feel fortunate that we have it, but lacks in both the violence and drama department when compared to truly elite matches. Nick Bockwinkel is a special talent and I think you see that here. He and Wahoo are absolutely perfect for one another in a strange way, with very different yet complimentary skillsets. They just never hit quite reach heights of the other matches here. I never quite feel the drama of Slaughter/Sheik or Lawler/Dundee or the violence of Duggan/Sawyer or Piper/Valentine. I can imagine this making some lists and wouldn’t bat an eye if it did, but I think it will just miss mine. Jim Duggan vs Buzz Sawyer (No DQ – 11/11/1985)Current Rank: NR Trending: Way Up You know who is really good at wrestling? Buzz Fucking Sawyer is really good at wrestling. Nothing away from Duggan, who is fantastic here, but the list of people more believable than Buzz Sawyer in the history of wrestling is pretty short. This match brings the hatred and intensity in a way that so few matches can. It might be legitimately the best post-match ever. I can’t think of any match that sells the very idea of hatred more convincingly. In the three weeks since I started this project, nothing has risen further than this. As of right now it sits among about 30-40 fringe matches that are currently not rated. Generously I would say those matches are competing, along with the matches currently ranked in these spots, for about 15-20 spots on the list itself. After watching it again, I can’t imagine this not on the list. While stars don't exactly equate to positions, for some reference it is jumping from the 4.75 star range to 5 in my book, meaning it will take a pretty significant jump to probably the 50s-70s range when I do some shuffling later this week. This is top shelf stuff. It transcends time and space. It's the kind of thing you could pop on for just about anyone and they would “get” why it is great. P.S. This is probably the last time I do 6 matches... Ugh, that took forever.
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Post by microstatistics on Jun 26, 2018 20:13:48 GMT -5
Fun read. I like the idea of comparing matches from different styles/promotions based on common themes. Looking forward to more.
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Post by Cap on Jul 2, 2018 13:05:09 GMT -5
Round 4: Its Vader Time! It’s Time! It’s Time! It’s Vader Time! Like so many fans, I carved out some time recently to enjoy some of the high points of from the career of Big Van Mother Fucking Vader. I thought since I was revisiting some favorites and even finding some new favorites I would go ahead and put them on the table here, consider where they stack up with the greatest matches of all time. So this round is dedicated to what I consider to be the best matches from The Mastodon himself. Now, first thing fist, I was – perhaps obviously – watching with the nostalgia nob turned way up and the criticism nob turned way down. So, I wont be just start tearing the list up and penning Vader classics in all over the place. I also dove a little into Vader’s time in UWFi for the first time, which was not only a new set of matches to take a look at, but also represented my first real step into Japanese shoot style wrestling. It's a world I have wanted and planned to get into for a while. I have even reached out to fellow fans for recommendations. The wrestling gods are cruel though. Just as I was preparing to dive into Tamura, Han, Maeda, and Fujiwara Vader’s passing led me to dip my toes in the style for the first real time primarily looking at his highly praised work with Takada and Tamura, my favorite of which finds its way onto this review. Vader vs Sting (Strap Match – 2/21/1993) Vader vs Ric Flair (WCW Title – 12/27/1993) Vader vs Keiji Muto (G1 Climax – 8/10/1991) Vader vs Nobuhiko Takada (8/18/1994) Vader vs Kiyoshi Tamura (6/10/1994) Vader always brought a unique presence and dynamic to his matches, one of the truly great big men who exudes legitimacy. He wasn’t just brutal, he forced his opponents to bring their best offense if they were to look like they had a prayer against him. In turn, I am going to over urgency, dynamic, and action. UrgencyI think one of the things that separates a fine/fun Vader match from a good to great Vader match is Urgency and most of that is often on his opponent. Vader is – in large part – a rock. Vader is Vader almost every time. He is a bear/man hybrid thrown into the ring to maul smaller men for the amusement of Rome. He stands in the center, holds his harms out, and shakes his jowls. The ball is in your court now, Sting (or Flair or Takada… etc). Vader is believable and it is sort of up to the man across the ring to hold up their end. There is surprising diversity among these matches in terms of how his opponent does just that. Lets start with Tamura because no one sets the tone as quickly or emphatically as he does. If you were about to fight Vader and he extended a hand in an act of sportsmanship, what would you do? I would shake it and hope this means that he won’t attempt to actually tear limbs off for the amusement of Rome. I wouldn’t – repeat, would not – smack him in his damn mouth. That is really the only difference between Tamura and myself (read: it is not the only difference, but it is definitely a big one). This match just oozes urgency. Tamura pushes the pace so hard and really forces Vader to play defense in a way. Everything in this match, from the kicks to the palm strikes, to the big clubbing shots, to the flash leg lock… it all has teeth to it and it all starts with that smack to the face. Everything is meant to hurt and everything looks like it does. Sticking with the style, there is a slower build to the Takada match and at least one or two moments where they lose that feeling of immanent danger. Takada is a bit more careful in his approach to Vader early on, but no less intent on hurting him. Even when they are measuring one another there is no doubt that they are looking for bruises, blood, and broken bones. The difference is a moment or two where I think Vader’s weakness as a shoot style wrestler cuts through all the strength of his character. The big one comes maybe between the third and half point of the match, where Vader finds himself on his back with Takada in a side control position. Takada looks like he is sort of working for something but Vader feels trapped between wanting to let Takada do his thing and wanting to look like he is struggling against it. It winds up looking awkward and obvious. In some ways this isn’t limited to shoot style work. The Flair match, for all its electric emotion and white hot drama has its share of moments where the two just don’t feel like they are on the same page. For his part Flair brings the babyface intensity, maybe one of his best face performances ever. He truly looks like he is fighting for his career and even his life sometimes, but emotion is just one part of the equation. Moves aren’t everything, but you still have to move with one another in a way that shows that emotion to the fans. There are a number of places in the match that momentum seems to just falter a touch as the execution wanes, but no one regains momentum better than Vader. It is really the best and worst of The Mastodon all at once. He nurtures a natural feel of urgency in his match, can lose fairly easily with some poor timing in big places, but can just as easily regain it with a massive forearm to the dome. Takada/Vader maintains that sense of urgency more so than Flair/Vader does, but in both cases the recoveries mitigate the damage. No place is Vader’s ability to recover more obvious than in his G1 Climax match with Mutoh. This match is frantic. It moves at an almost mesmerizing clip as Mutoh more or less tries to match Vader’s size with a tornado approach to his offense, just throw fucking everything at him and do it as quickly as possible. He maintains his underdog position (more on this later), but does it with a ton of energy and almost reckless abandon. Juxtaposed to my favorite from the Sting/Vader series and it is clear why comparisons are often drawn between Sting and Mutoh against the big man. Sting is slightly more measured, but more than makes up for it with a real sense of hatred. That actually isn’t the right word. I don’t know that I have ever seen a match where it felt like Sting hated someone. I don’t think his offense, charisma, or demeanor are really the sort that created the feeling of hate. It feels more like he takes great joy in hurting Vader, in giving him some receipts and making the bear/man hybrid bleed for the amusement of Rome. Vader always wants to hurt the man across the ring. It is just who he is, Sting matches it with a unique malice that is certainly helped by the leather strap he uses to take off strips of Vader’s back. Dynamic A good Vader match almost always leans into the face/heel – underdog/monster dynamic. Of course all these matches do just that, but the devil is the details. Personally, I enjoy it when someone takes it to Vader. Sting, by this point, is already intimately familiar with The Mastodon’s work. The introduction of the strap is a game changer. Even when there is a momentary feeling out process there is intensity to the proceedings. Sting knows that if you hesitate Vader does murder on you on, so he pushes a frantic pace here. Sting isn’t small so the story is really dependent upon Vader’s ability to stop Sting’s momentum dead at a moment’s notice and relies on his big offense and presence. By the end they actually close the gap between the two. As the blood flows and the match becomes a matter of survival this begins to really feel like a battle of equals. Sting works bigger as the match goes and Vader – brilliantly – shrinks a bit. I think conventional wisdom says that Vader is Stings best opponent (or on the very short list thereof), but this is why Sting might also be Vader’s best opponent. He sits in this sweet spot where he can play underdog and almost a hoss in the same match; he can take a beating; he can tell diverse stories with Vader. He is just great for Vader and Vader is great for him. Mutoh is very close to Sting in this regard, and while I think the two matches are very close in overall quality, Mutoh provides a more one note dynamic. He is more speed and movement around the stationary Vader. Of all the matches on this list, Mutoh probably embraces this tried and true formula for Vader matches, and in some ways that provides some uniqueness as he does so while pushing the pace so hard. Flair and Takada are a little more traditional in their approach to Vader. They certainly aren’t scared, but there is more caution to them. One of the real strengths of Takada/Vader II is Vader’s cutoffs. Takada is significantly smaller so aesthetically that dynamic is very legible. He establishes his credibility primarily with his massive shots and strong combos, but we are constantly reminded that Vader is the man when he wrecked Takada with clubbing blows. Half way through the match Takada lands some brutal kicks to Vader in rapid succession, only to wind up getting absolutely decimated by a Vader to put an end to that shit, perfectly encapsulating what I am talking about here. Takada is able to maintain the respectful distance with Vader for the most part without losing any of the competitiveness and interest. Flair is more or less able to do the same thing (though maybe not quite as well) in a more traditional pro wrestling context. He takes a fairly significant ass beating to make it happen, “selling” some legit shots before he is able to just heart his way back into it. Everyone in question comes in with a reputation, but I am not sure anyone rides that reputation harder than Flair in this match. Flair’s reputation is the source of most of the emotion and why any of this works because he is perhaps physically the least capable of standing up to a sentient mountain for the entertainment of fucking Rome! On the other hand, the smallest (not by much) of the lot might actually be the most believable. Tamura takes a completely unique approach to this if you look at the bell to bell work. He starts hot, smacks Vader in the face, and actually controls the first 4/5ths or so of the match (if not more). Vader actually becomes the hunted as he can’t quite get his hands on Tamura for any period of time. Of course this all changes at the end because once he does get a hold of him it is fucking over. I am pretty sure the writers of Game of Thrones watched this when they drew up the fight between The Mountain and Oberyn Martell. You still come away with the feeling that Tamura (Martell) might be the better fighter, but weight classes exist for a reason. ActionOne of my favorite videos in all of the interwebs is the interview with Taker and Vader in Kuwait wherein they are asked if wrestling is fake. Taker provides a diplomatic, measured answer. Vader flips a fucking table, grabs the dude by the tie, and (I assume) makes him shit himself on TV. The whole thing was apparently planned, but the point is this; Vader – as a character – is eternally dedicated to the very idea of believability. Rome is not easily entertained, so he hits men in the fucking face and he hits them hard. He does that in all these matches. He pushes men around, punches them, slams them, tosses them. If you don’t like it you are in the wrong place. Vader does Vader stuff and Vader stuff is always awesome. Offense isn’t everything in a match and in fact it is sort of low on my overall list of demands, but when you are a man-beast titan tasked with murdering men for the ENTERTAINMENT OF ROME, it matters. Two sort of notable quasi-exceptions to this are the Sting and Takada matches, both of which force Vader to add something else to his simple, yet effective, arsenal. Adding a leather strap to the proceedings put a new weapon in both men’s hands. Sting used it most effectively, whipping Vader and slicing open his back immediately. Look, you just can’t fake that shit. Straps can often be more of a hindrance than help and in this case I think the opposite was true. Vader and Sting used it well. Sting incorporated it into his offense and his game plan. It just turned Vader’s offense up a notch and really accented his dominance. On the other hand, adding more legit looking ground game in the Takada match actually put speed bumps in front of Vader. He honestly looks lost for the most part. While Takada is enough to cover most of it and the strike exchanges are still out of this world, I can’t help but nitpick him a bit on the ground. Takada/Vader is still a much stronger offensive performance than Flair/Vader was. Just to make sure I beat this dead horse a little more, Flair and Vader delivered a high emotion, drama filled match that leaned heavily on Flair’s legacy, dread over his career potentially ending, and the massive size disparity. However, this was neither man’s best work when it came to execution. The ending in particular was a bit of a mess, not nearly worthy of what they had accomplished to that point. Honestly, it just drags this match down to me. The two matches that bring the most action to me are the Mutoh and Tamura matches. I could even see how someone might be critical of each in this regard. Mutoh and Vader go at an incredible clip. Mutoh throwing everything at the big man from basically jump. This gives everything a sort of frantic feel that I think is similar to, but exceeds, the energy of Sting/Vader. The whole thing peaks nicely at the end when Mutoh is moving with desperation. The energy shift was really compelling work, particularly as the slams and strikes from Vader take their toll. I could also see someone criticizing Tamura for taking too much of the his match with Vader, but I actually think that is the whole thing is put together perfectly. I love the combos that Tamura uses and how explosive his offense is. The dynamic that they put together is only possible and only able to be this unique because of how well executed and dynamic everything looks between the two. Tamura lays in his shots. Everything is slightly chaotic, like a fight really is. I particularly liked Tamura targeting the leg and the way they would tease Vader finally getting to him before he actually did. I loved when Vader pushed Tamura into a corner only to take a few quick palm strikes before Tamura could open the distance again. I prefer matches when someone takes it to Vader and make everything a bit more smashmouth. Vader is always going to bring the realism and Tamura, Sting, Takada, and Mutoh all match him in their own unique ways, making each match unique. Final Thoughts
Before this rewatch I didn’t have a single Vader match in my top 100, so my typical rank/trending system is sort of worthless here. I came away thinking at least 4 deserve pretty serious consideration. I’ll be genuinely surprised if more than two are able to make the final cut, but who the fuck knows what it will look like when the dust settles. Vader vs Keiji Mutoh (G1 Climax – 8/10/1991)Current Rank: NR Trending: Up I saw this match a while back (no clue when really) and it always sort of registered as good, kind of in the realm of Sting/Vader, but maybe not as good as the top match there. On revisit I was really really impressed with this. This felt like it might be the best Vader match ever (its at least in the conversation). This was just so high octane. Action wise it is kind of what I want from Sting/Vader. It is dynamic, stiff, aggressive and Mutoh is such a wonderful fire-filled babyface hero. Mutoh, when on, is a great wrestler and he had his damn boots on in this. This has a big match feel, but it doesn’t get it from the set up. It gets it from how everything done between the bells. There is a small little slip at the end of the match that is dealt with pretty well, but it doesn’t take too much away for me. I am really more impressed the way they sell Mutoh’s exahstion as he tries desperately to finish Vader off at the end. Even if the final sequence wasn’t perfect, the tone of the homestretch was awesome. That is far more important to me. High action, solid emotion, this is a top match that has a real shot of making the bottom ¼ of the list. Vader vs Sting (Strap Match – 2/21/1993)Current Rank: NR Trending: Up This was one of my favorite feuds growing up. I was pretty young when the matches happened. I didn’t have a critical eye at 9 years old, but I knew what I liked. I knew I liked Sting and I knew I liked Vader. I knew I liked them together. For a while now I have sort of had this feud and this match on the backburner. I had it in the “great, but not really elite” bracket. But, as I have said before, when a match sticks with me that means something. This is one I always kept coming back to in my mind, a match that was memorable. It is a match I go to make points quite frequently I feel like. It is a match I can bring up with a lot of non-internet friends/wrestling dorks I know. Its relatable and it resonates as great for a lot of people. When I watched it this time something clicked. Maybe it was just the nostalgia brought on by watching it after the passing of Vader, but this felt like it held up in terms of energy, offense, story, and payoff. It stood out not just in this grouping, but in my rewatching on the whole. I am not sure if this is my favorite Vader match, but it might be. This is also in serious consideration for the back ¼ of the list and i if nothing else that will get one of those final 5-7 spots. Vader vs Ric Flair (WCW Title – 12/27/1993)Current Rank: NR Trending: Down While the Sting match exceeded my expectations and my memories, this match sort of let me down and it does so every time I watch it. I can’t express enough that I still love the overall product that is this match. It isn’t a technical masterpiece, but not all great wrestling is. This always feels like it delivers on emotion and it comes up short everywhere else to me. Part of it is my own expectations. If this were Hogan and Andre I would call this over delivering, but it isn’t. The ending is something I just can’t get past. Its both over convoluted and sort of sloppy. Additionally, I have trouble getting into face Flair here. I know conventional wisdom says that the big monster needs to be the heel, but it just doesn't work for me. . He isn’t built to physically go toe to toe with Vader. I could buy heel Flair doing heel Flair stuff to get the upper hand (and we see some borderline version of that), but it just doesn’t work at the level that I want it to in my brain. Vader vs Kiyoshi Tamura (6/10/1994)Current Rank: NR Trending Up I know there are others that are high on this, but this is one I feel like I like a good bit more than the average. It is one of the best sub 10 minute matches I have ever seen (maybe the best), absolutely electric between the bells. Tamura brings so much fire and aggression. He damn near puts Vader on his back foot before the match even starts. I believe Elliot discussed this when he nominated the match, but it is brilliant the way they use Tamura’s offense to carry the first part of the match and eventually put over just how dangerous Vader is. The degree of difficaulty in pulling off all this match did in the time it has, just stunning. In the end, this remains on the outside looking in for right now. Its great in every way, but I am not sure it hits the highest notes for me. However, I am relatively new to shoot style matches, so this (and the Takada match) are going to have to get some more consideration once I have a better feel for the style and expectations. Even with my limited exposure, this seems unique, a really fascinating and effective hybrid of shoot and more traditional pro styles. Honestly, this could wind up off the list, or top 50, depending on a number of variables. Regardless, I love this match and I am really glad I got into this stuff. Vader vs Nobuhiko Takada (8/18/1994)Current Rank: NR Trending: Up I really enjoyed all three Takada/Vader matches, but this was probably my overall favorite. It had the best ending/finishing stretch and it had the highest highs in terms of physical exchanges. This also has such a big match feel to it. It feels like there is really something at stake between these two, particularly in this one as they build somewhat off their first match. I am not sure any match in this grouping is as well rounded as this one in terms of its greatness. It is high drama, solid emotion, incredible violence, great execution, satisfying finish, and it just gets more time to tell that story. They just excel everywhere here. While the match does have a low point or two as Vader seems uncomfortable on the ground, it has some really high highs with their striking exchanges and the way some of the submissions are laid in. Again, because I am just dipping my toes in the style right now this will get some further consideration as I go, but I can see this as having a real shot at the list. It could wind up pretty high.
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Post by elliott on Jul 2, 2018 19:39:24 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry too much about not being super into shoot-style in regards to Vader's UWFi matches. His matches are much more similar to a New Japan match than a RINGS match. The host of Tamura matches I nominated/recommended to you are going to be way different experiences. Vader's just not a good mat worker so they don't really bother all that much.
If this was a Top 100 favorites list, that Vader vs Tamura match would be a top 5 contender for me. I think it is absolutely perfect. Vader's undeniably a great wrestler, but he might end up like Rey Mysterio Jr or Eddy Guerrero where I love 'em but they might not have a match make my final list. The Tamura match because it is a personal favorite (and perfect imo) stands a chance. The next closest for me would probably be that Muto match which I've always loved and preferred to the Sting matches. But I see that as more of a top 150 contender than a top 100 contender.
What are your thoughts on the Leon White vs Stan Hansen match from AWA? I know some people are super duper high on that match and its an interesting chance to look at a Vader match that isn't a Vader match.
Coincidentally, I just watched an EMLL trios match from what had to be 1989 or pre September 1990 that had Vader, El Satanico, El Faraon, Cien Caras, Lizmark and someone I'm forgetting. I was super excited because I don't ever recall seeing a Vader match in Mexico. Let's just say I won't be nominating it for this project.
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Post by bossrock on Jul 2, 2018 23:16:27 GMT -5
The Vader-Tamura match is definitely a fun watch. A big powerhouse with no technical ability or fighting prowess just uses brute force to wipe out his opponent.
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Post by Cap on Jul 3, 2018 7:09:10 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry too much about not being super into shoot-style in regards to Vader's UWFi matches. His matches are much more similar to a New Japan match than a RINGS match. The host of Tamura matches I nominated/recommended to you are going to be way different experiences. Vader's just not a good mat worker so they don't really bother all that much. If this was a Top 100 favorites list, that Vader vs Tamura match would be a top 5 contender for me. I think it is absolutely perfect. Vader's undeniably a great wrestler, but he might end up like Rey Mysterio Jr or Eddy Guerrero where I love 'em but they might not have a match make my final list. The Tamura match because it is a personal favorite (and perfect imo) stands a chance. The next closest for me would probably be that Muto match which I've always loved and preferred to the Sting matches. But I see that as more of a top 150 contender than a top 100 contender. What are your thoughts on the Leon White vs Stan Hansen match from AWA? I know some people are super duper high on that match and its an interesting chance to look at a Vader match that isn't a Vader match. Coincidentally, I just watched an EMLL trios match from what had to be 1989 or pre September 1990 that had Vader, El Satanico, El Faraon, Cien Caras, Lizmark and someone I'm forgetting. I was super excited because I don't ever recall seeing a Vader match in Mexico. Let's just say I won't be nominating it for this project. I wouldn't say that I wasn't into it. I actually loved it. I rated all the Takada/Vader matches and the Tamura/Vader match really high. The ground work from Vader (when he found himself there) did sort of hold it back though. I watched the Fujiwara match and the first two Han/Tamura matches you sent me and am kind of in love, but it is taking me some time to get oriented to it all and put into words what I like and dislike so I am going to keep watching stuff and then rewatch some standout matches before I chime in much on those. I am really into it though. I loved that White/Hansen match. I thought about including it in this little watch and honestly it probably would have done better for me than Flair/Vader, but only so many hours in a day, ya know. For some scope. I have it at ****1/2, which is where I had Sting/Vader Strap (bumped up on rewatch) and Starcade, Flair/Vader, Takada/Vader I and III, and Dustin/Vader. So, it is up there with some of his best work. Side note, I just realized I never did a little review/rating of Cactus vs Vader. Maybe I will have to make some time for that and another look at Hansen/White.
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Post by elliott on Jul 3, 2018 16:47:00 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that I wasn't into it. I actually loved it. I rated all the Takada/Vader matches and the Tamura/Vader match really high. The ground work from Vader (when he found himself there) did sort of hold it back though. I watched the Fujiwara match and the first two Han/Tamura matches you sent me and am kind of in love, but it is taking me some time to get oriented to it all and put into words what I like and dislike so I am going to keep watching stuff and then rewatch some standout matches before I chime in much on those. I am really into it though. I just meant to say Vader matches in UWFi working "shoot style" are really just Vader matches. They're waaaaaay different from something like Fujiwara vs Yamazaki. The Vader matches are super easy to appreciate because they're some of the best Vader matches. But I wouldn't use them as examples of "shoot style" exactly. I've been thinking more about the Vader vs Tamura match. It is something I've always considered a personal favorite and a "perfect 10 minute match" but I've never really thought about what that means. Over the course of almost 20 years or so since I first saw it, I've always said I loved it but usually rated it like 3 1/2 or 4 stars. It has only been recently where I've started to think of it it as a classic match. I could absolutely envision talking myself into ranking that match in the top 50. I will definitely have short matches on my list. FUjiwara vs Choshu is a stone cold lock and something I'm considering for my top 25. So that kinda got me thinking, why not Vader vs Tamura? I think about the restrictions of the style. Tamura is a smaller dude who is super fast and is probably one of the greatest athletes in the history of wrestling. In a "normal" wrestling promotion, you'd see a guy Tamura's doing rope running spots and probably high flying to put Vader on the ropes. Obviously Tamura can't do any of that. So they had to craft the drama using smaller, simpler tools. Lightening fast kicks and punches and quick movements to avoid Vader's damaging blows. I think the selling is absolutely perfect. Tamura is able to get Vader rocking and rolling and Vader is always a great weeble wobble seller. But the way Tamura sells Vader's offense is brilliant. I think Tamura is an all time great seller and this is a great example. He sells the danger of Vader beautifully. Getting his hands up to block the heavy blows but still getting knocked off his feet to put over the idea that even blocking Vader's strikes isn't enough for him. This puts over the idea that everyone already knows, if Vader gets his hands on Tamura, it is over. But Tamura is so fast and so quick with the strikes that he manages to create some drama. Fucking brilliant match. It is only 10 minutes sure. But where's the rule that says a match has to be 25 minutes? They worked the match absolutely perfectly given the time they had and given how they were presented. I can't imagine a better version of that match. It is a lot like Mayweather vs Big Show without all the bells and whistles. I'm really excited to see your write up of the Fujiwara vs Super Tiger match. I love that one and just find it ultra compelling. As I told you when I recommended it, it might be my #1 Japanese mens singles match of the 80s. I struggle to write about the Han vs Tamura series because they are so fucking incredible. "I didn't think mat work could be more exciting than an athletic peak Rey Mysterio Jr match and then I watched Han vs Tamura."
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Post by fxnj on Jul 4, 2018 6:20:42 GMT -5
I had Vader/Tamura at ****3/8 when I saw it. I agree it was an exceptionally well-worked match that easily met any expectations you'd have about a match between Vader and one of the best shoot-stylists ever, but it just didn't have the intangibles to push it to all-time classic status, which is what ****1/2 means to me. I may still raise the rating on a rewatch, as that's where it seems these short match really shine.My go-to for best sub-10 minute match ever has always been Funaki/Nakano with Hashimoto/Zangiev not too far behind, but I wouldn't rule out possibly giving Vader/Tamura that honor someday. I agree that ***1/2 for that match is bullshit. They did way too many great things to warrant a low ball rating like that.
As I've watched more matches for this project, I have noticed myself shifting away from the mindset of thinking of short matches as some sort of limitation that guys have to overcome and into seeing short matches as simply a different genre akin to how we speak of blood brawls, juniors matches, or heavyweight title matches. Speaking of the difference between short matches and long matches is like the difference between a 100m sprint and a marathon. They require different tools to succeed. For a long match, I look at the storytelling complexity, moveset escalation, and long-term selling. For a short match, you don't have time to build any of that, so the best short matches seem to focus on the more primal elements like explosive athleticism, aggression, and brutality. Also, guys going for finishing moves one after the other might be a hindrance in longer matches, but it's welcome and even desirable in short matches for how it can create the sense that a match can end any minute and make the short length still feel satisfying. I also think that's why shoot-style seems to excel so much at short matches compared to other styles, since it's all about highlighting the basic aspects of wrestling without all the bells and whistles.
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Post by Cap on Jul 4, 2018 9:11:39 GMT -5
In the past year or so I have started to really expand what I think a great match can look like. I think part of it is how common "good" to "great" matches have become and how common it is to see a folks working deliberately to create something "epic". I wouldn't bat an eye if someone had Tamura/Vader high on their list (hell, it might be me).
This project has already been really good for sorting through what constitutes greatness for me.
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