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Post by Cap on Mar 29, 2019 14:07:36 GMT -5
Pretty simple topic... What have you learned about your own tastes in wrestling from putting together your first list this year? I have learned a great deal and I will respond with more detail once I actually submit my list (hopefully this weekend).
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Post by wrestlingfan on Mar 30, 2019 8:59:13 GMT -5
- Barry Windham is my least favorite Flair's opponent. - Abdullah The Butcher entertains me more than Bruiser Brody. - Memphis wrestling is great. - I'm extremely low on Hansen's work in Puerto Rico. Terry Funk had much more enjoyable matches there. - Atsushi Onita is a fun wrestler. - Sgt. Slaughter had awesome matches in WWF and Mid Atlantic. - El Dandy is by far the most accesible luchador. - I love shoot style but not BattlArts and Futen. - Joshi can be great when it's violent. - I love Rockers matches in AWA and even in WWF. - Bruno Sammartino is extremely boring.
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Post by kas on Mar 30, 2019 11:41:36 GMT -5
- Modern day New Japan is my absolute jam - The 90s is my favourite period of wrestling, which surprised me as I thought it would be the 2010s - I'm not as into Shoot Style as I thought I would be, only one Shoot Style match made my list. - Shinobu Kandori is one of the best wrestlers of all time, male or female - I thought I would dislike Lucha Libre, turns out I love it - My favourite match type is the spectacle match. Think Okada/Omega at WK11, or Taker/Michaels at WM25
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Post by Cap on Mar 30, 2019 11:42:52 GMT -5
That Kandori take is where it is at. She is incredible.
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Post by kas on Mar 30, 2019 12:05:23 GMT -5
People rightly talk about Toyota, Hokuto, Bull, and Aja, but Kandori is an unsung hero who could slot into any role absolutely perfectly. Kyoko Inoue is the same, just not quite as good as Kandori.
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Post by Kadaveri on Mar 30, 2019 19:52:35 GMT -5
That I am outrageously high on Steve Austin. He now has 10 matches in my Top 100, more than anyone except Mitsuharu Misawa and is tied with Toshiaki Kawada.
More generally I've gone off bombfests with not a lot of selling. I used to think 90s Joshi was the greatest thing ever when I first discovered it in the late 00s, rewatching most of it though it's not as exciting as I thought it was. Only 8 matches from that period are on my list now. Akira Hokuto holds up the best.
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Post by bossrock on Mar 30, 2019 20:30:29 GMT -5
-90's All Japan is still my favorite era of wrestling -Genichiro Tenryu may not have had a ton of matches that made my list, but he is one of the greatest and most versatile wrestlers ever -I greatly prefer the BattlArts and Futen styles of shoot wrestling to the Rings and UWFi styles -While WWE has had a lot of great matches over the years, a lot of them aren't as great as I remembered and are celebrated to the point where expectations are just a bit too high -Carlos Colon is a better wrestler and babyface than Jerry Lawler -While being another wrestler who didn't have a ton of matches that made my list (just one in fact), Shinya Hashimoto is an all-time great -Lucha isn't my favorite style but when it's good, it's fantastic -Technical and mat-based wrestling is still not my cup of tea -Modern NJPW may be a bit too heavily praised at times with ridiculous star ratings (even if it is currently my favorite product), but the best matches are pretty undeniable
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Post by elliott on Mar 30, 2019 20:59:06 GMT -5
People rightly talk about Toyota, Hokuto, Bull, and Aja, but Kandori is an unsung hero who could slot into any role absolutely perfectly. Kyoko Inoue is the same, just not quite as good as Kandori. I'm not sure I agree with this. Or I guess I'm not sure what you mean. I guess she's an "unsung hero" in the way she has been historically perceived by English speaking smart fan, but she was a big star and personality relative to joshi stara at the time. Kandori was a bigger mainstream name and star than Toyota going back to the late 80s and up through the mid 90s Joshi peak. She was very much on the level of Bull, Aja and Hokuto in terms of a kayfabed stardom hierarchy. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say she could be slotted into any role? I guess you mean she could brawl and work straight up technical and singles/tags? But really she was always really in one "role" in that she was always the baddest and most legit wrestler around. Someone more dangerous than the other wrestlers. It's what made her stand out and gave her the aura that helped her have so many memorable matches. She was never really the underdog or sympathetic babyface or sneaky cheating heel. She was the baddest motherfucker around who could fuck anyone up. I encourage all Kandori praise I just want to clarify what you mean in case someone hasn't checked out Kandori and goes in expecting an Arn Anderson or Bobby Eaton type. Kandori is the Brock Lesnar of Joshi. Only if Lesnar had reached his potential. I ended up with 5 Kandori matches on my list and had two more barely miss it.
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Post by elliott on Mar 30, 2019 21:25:25 GMT -5
I want to say something about El Hijo del Santo but I'm not sure what exactly. Best singles match wrestler ever? Best big match wrestler ever? Certainly the most versatile wrestler who could ever be called a formula worker. Top 10 brawler, title match worker, flyer, multi man match and babyface ever? I have 13 or 14 Santo matches on my list from the 80s, 90s, 00s, and 10s. There are brawls, technical matches, singles, multi mans. There are matches from the US, Mexico and England. There are matches in front of a few hundred people and matches in front of almost 20,000.
Are we sure Santo isn't the GOAT?
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Post by fxnj on Mar 31, 2019 0:15:56 GMT -5
-90s AJPW is still GOAT and there's still plenty of classics that haven't been given proper due -80's Japan had the best crowds -50's US is GOAT for matwork -Inoki is GOAT ace -I don't dig 2000's and 2010's wrestling as much as I thought -2000's ROH is good, but not quite the golden era I'd heard it pimped -CMLL formula is the worst thing to happen to lucha -I'd like to direct every insult imaginable at the DVDVR people who decided to leave 8/8/88 off the 80's NJPW set. Best NJPW match, 80's match, and overall top 10 match for me. Biggest discovery of the project match-wise.
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Post by kas on Mar 31, 2019 7:43:17 GMT -5
People rightly talk about Toyota, Hokuto, Bull, and Aja, but Kandori is an unsung hero who could slot into any role absolutely perfectly. Kyoko Inoue is the same, just not quite as good as Kandori. I'm not sure I agree with this. Or I guess I'm not sure what you mean. I guess she's an "unsung hero" in the way she has been historically perceived by English speaking smart fan, but she was a big star and personality relative to joshi stara at the time. Kandori was a bigger mainstream name and star than Toyota going back to the late 80s and up through the mid 90s Joshi peak. She was very much on the level of Bull, Aja and Hokuto in terms of a kayfabed stardom hierarchy. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say she could be slotted into any role? I guess you mean she could brawl and work straight up technical and singles/tags? But really she was always really in one "role" in that she was always the baddest and most legit wrestler around. Someone more dangerous than the other wrestlers. It's what made her stand out and gave her the aura that helped her have so many memorable matches. She was never really the underdog or sympathetic babyface or sneaky cheating heel. She was the baddest motherfucker around who could fuck anyone up. I encourage all Kandori praise I just want to clarify what you mean in case someone hasn't checked out Kandori and goes in expecting an Arn Anderson or Bobby Eaton type. Kandori is the Brock Lesnar of Joshi. Only if Lesnar had reached his potential. I ended up with 5 Kandori matches on my list and had two more barely miss it. Yeah probably should have worded it better but history has been a lot kinder to the wrestlers I mentioned than Kandori. Whenever people bring up Joshi legends those 4 are the most mentioned and Kandori is often left off of that list for whatever reason when there's a case for her being the best one there. And yeah that is what I meant, she could work any type of match brilliantly whether that's a brawl, or a technical match etc.
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Post by Cap on Mar 31, 2019 7:51:31 GMT -5
People rightly talk about Toyota, Hokuto, Bull, and Aja, but Kandori is an unsung hero who could slot into any role absolutely perfectly. Kyoko Inoue is the same, just not quite as good as Kandori. I'm not sure I agree with this. Or I guess I'm not sure what you mean. I guess she's an "unsung hero" in the way she has been historically perceived by English speaking smart fan, but she was a big star and personality relative to joshi stara at the time. Kandori was a bigger mainstream name and star than Toyota going back to the late 80s and up through the mid 90s Joshi peak. She was very much on the level of Bull, Aja and Hokuto in terms of a kayfabed stardom hierarchy. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say she could be slotted into any role? I guess you mean she could brawl and work straight up technical and singles/tags? But really she was always really in one "role" in that she was always the baddest and most legit wrestler around. Someone more dangerous than the other wrestlers. It's what made her stand out and gave her the aura that helped her have so many memorable matches. She was never really the underdog or sympathetic babyface or sneaky cheating heel. She was the baddest motherfucker around who could fuck anyone up. I encourage all Kandori praise I just want to clarify what you mean in case someone hasn't checked out Kandori and goes in expecting an Arn Anderson or Bobby Eaton type. Kandori is the Brock Lesnar of Joshi. Only if Lesnar had reached his potential. I ended up with 5 Kandori matches on my list and had two more barely miss it. These are all the things I love about Kandori. She has been my favorite female wrestler for some time now. Her greatest strengh to me is that she can face off with someone like Bull or Aja and be completely believable as their equal or she can get sympathy underneath, depending on what she wants to do
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Post by Cap on Mar 31, 2019 7:57:19 GMT -5
I want to say something about El Hijo del Santo but I'm not sure what exactly. Best singles match wrestler ever? Best big match wrestler ever? Certainly the most versatile wrestler who could ever be called a formula worker. Top 10 brawler, title match worker, flyer, multi man match and babyface ever? I have 13 or 14 Santo matches on my list from the 80s, 90s, 00s, and 10s. There are brawls, technical matches, singles, multi mans. There are matches from the US, Mexico and England. There are matches in front of a few hundred people and matches in front of almost 20,000. Are we sure Santo isn't the GOAT? It really is possible that Santo is the best to ever do it. It really is. I actually think this quite often. If i were to do a GWE list at any point El Hijo del Santo would be on the short list of guys I would seriously consider for #1
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Post by elliott on Mar 31, 2019 13:33:29 GMT -5
E I'm not sure I agree with this. Or I guess I'm not sure what you mean. I guess she's an "unsung hero" in the way she has been historically perceived by English speaking smart fan, but she was a big star and personality relative to joshi stara at the time. Kandori was a bigger mainstream name and star than Toyota going back to the late 80s and up through the mid 90s Joshi peak. She was very much on the level of Bull, Aja and Hokuto in terms of a kayfabed stardom hierarchy. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say she could be slotted into any role? I guess you mean she could brawl and work straight up technical and singles/tags? But really she was always really in one "role" in that she was always the baddest and most legit wrestler around. Someone more dangerous than the other wrestlers. It's what made her stand out and gave her the aura that helped her have so many memorable matches. She was never really the underdog or sympathetic babyface or sneaky cheating heel. She was the baddest motherfucker around who could fuck anyone up. I encourage all Kandori praise I just want to clarify what you mean in case someone hasn't checked out Kandori and goes in expecting an Arn Anderson or Bobby Eaton type. Kandori is the Brock Lesnar of Joshi. Only if Lesnar had reached his potential. I ended up with 5 Kandori matches on my list and had two more barely miss it. These are all the things I love about Kandori. She has been my favorite female wrestler for some time now. Her greatest strengh to me is that she can face off with someone like Bull or Aja and be completely believable as their equal or she can get sympathy underneath, depending on what she wants to do What matches is she getting sympathy underneath though? Im not saying she didn't sell. In fact I think her selling is really good and not just relative to other Joshi wrestlers. She is excellent at selling exhaustion and cumulative damage. But I don't think ive ever watchedKandori and thought of her selling or anything she did as sympathetic. The only time she was ever really an "underdog" was the famous Queendom match...but theres so many layers to that match and because of Kandori's aura I don't view her as an underdog even in that situation. Because Kandori is Kandori the fear in that match is that she might lose. Hokuto might actually get killed going up against Bull/Aja with her biggest rival her only potential savior. Even against Bull and Aja as a team, Kandori is such a badass you are left with the impression that while she might lose the match Kandori will live to fight again. This is why I always make the comparison to Brock. Maybe Maeda during the UWF vs NJ feud or the best possible Naoya Ogawa? There are certain wrestlers that I just can't see as sympathetic. Even Aja Ive seen as a sympathetic figure but I just cant connect with Kandori that way. Perhaps it is her legit Judo credentials or signature spots like the swinging chokehold or her repeated slaps followed by her taunting slaps pose. She would beat the fuck out of people and mock them for it with that pose in every match in her career. I don't mean to make it a thing ive just watched a bunch of Kandori for this project, see her as an all time great and think her selling is a big part of it, but I don't see what you guys are seeing at all in terms of garnering sympathy. compare her to Mayumi Ozaki. Now Ozaki is someone who can transform from the most evil person on the planet to Ricky Morton level babyface within the same match unlike anyone ive ever seen.
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Post by Cap on Mar 31, 2019 13:43:43 GMT -5
Maybe "sympathy" isn't the right word, but she can believably sell against anyone. Obviously in the bull chain match and in the tag team she could switch back and forth between getting her ass handed to her and feeling like the smaller woman his just overpowered and their equal. I like your comparison to Brock, but size matters here. Brock selling a beating doesn't strike me as the same as Kandori selling a betting, especially when there is a physical discrepancy like with Bull or Aja. Hell I think she can even make Hokuto feel bigger and more menacing bc of her selling. So perhaps "sympathy" - particularly because it has such a resonance in wrestling - isn't the exact word, but her make up, the combination of her size and her badassness, as well as her selling makes her a uniquely diverse wrestler in her context in my mind.
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