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Post by fxnj on Apr 25, 2019 23:10:38 GMT -5
I started watching in 2007, but still my interest wanes with revisiting or discovering new matches post-2000. The 2000s decade was largely saved by the last gasps of the pillars and shoot-style, and was primarily represented in my ballot in that capacity, but as you go deeper into the 2010’s I find myself increasingly alienated by the direction of the business. A few reasons for that
*Worse talent pool than 70s-90s with great college athletes choosing to go into MMA instead *Self-conscious and masturbatory crowds and commentators *Increase in guys going long for the sake of going long, while at the same time being clueless how to actually fill the time beyond listlessly running through moves *Increase in the idea that the stretch run is the only part of a match that matters *Loss of stylistic diversity with a gimped fusion of indy movez with king’s road becoming the standard main event style all over the world *Almost no one capable of competently working the mat, which is a big thing for me as I love gritty matwork
It’s not all bad, though. The rise of indy lucha over the past has been really cool to witness and most of my favorite lucha matches and workers are from the past decade, even though it wasn’t really reflected on my list. It’s also neat to see all the creativity in how deathmatch wrestling has evolved even though it hasn’t really created what I’d consider all-time great matches.
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Post by Cap on Apr 26, 2019 11:16:51 GMT -5
So I just dropped 40-31 and I have to say I am delighted at how well Fujiwara vs Takada did. That might be too low on my list. It is such a joy to watch. You know you all don't have to be bashful...you can just come out and say how good my list is! 😋😋 I mean a lot of it does have to do with the fact I didn't rewatch All Japan in time but I don't envision either Fujiwara match falling out of my Top 20. I thought I was going to be the high vote at 16, but you are out there doing the lords work.
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Post by KB8 on Apr 26, 2019 12:15:21 GMT -5
On my list that I never actually got around to submitting I had five matches from the 2010s and fourteen from the 2000s, which is actually more than I'd have expected.
Echoing what others have said, the bulk of my list being 80s and 90s stuff is largely due to the 00s and 10s having stylistic shifts in the opposite direction of where my tastes primarily lie. There was good lucha in the 00s, but things like Dandy/Navarro from IWRG and Santo/Panther from Monterrey are far more similar to the sort of high end lucha we got in the 80s and 90s. On the other hand, mid-late 2000s CMLL main event formula wasn't going to be well represented on my list (because it was bad). Japanese wrestling started to decline in the 00s and shoot style more or less died a death, but most of the 2000s stuff from Japan that I'd have voted for would've been FUTEN/Battlarts, U-Style, Tenryu and Kawada working a hybrid All Japan/WAR slugfest, and Hashimoto trying to throttle Ogawa at the Dome. None of the big NOAH matches do much for me. I don't care one bit for a lot of the prominent players outside of NOAH like Kojima and Tenzan and Nagata. Joshi generally isn't my favourite style anyway, but by the 2000s it was long past its peak years. My favourite Japanese promotions ever are RINGS, Battlarts and WAR and, other than the brief runs/revivals of the Battlarts crew, those promotions were either out of business or had turned to full MMA for the majority of the decade. That's not even factoring in shoot style feds like UWF/UWFi or PWFG. No MPro. ARSION was still around, but by 2001 was it really the same ARSION? US indies had their boom period and WWF/E still produced a lot of good stuff - especially in terms of weekly TV - but I don't like peak ROH or 00s WWE nearly as much as I like what we got from the territories in the 80s. I mean, that Bryan Danielson title run was nice and all but like, there's no Jerry Lawler and Bill Dundee punching each other in the face or Jim Duggan trying to murder Ted DiBiase while wearing a tuxedo or Terry Funk trying to suffocate someone with a plastic bag or Bockwinkel or Rose or the Midnight Express.
Most of the wrestling from Japan at this point is nothing close to what I want to watch so the 2010s was never going to be a well represented decade on my list.
I like way the fuck more wrestling from the 80s and 90s than the 00s and 10s, basically.
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Post by pterois on Apr 26, 2019 12:53:05 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure in twenty years, Kenny Omega, Hiroshi Tanahashi, AJ Styles and Kazuchika Okada will be as higly regarded among hardcore fans as Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, Flair, Hansen and Funk are nowadays.
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Post by kas on Apr 26, 2019 13:19:41 GMT -5
On my list that I never actually got around to submitting I had five matches from the 2010s and fourteen from the 2000s, which is actually more than I'd have expected. Echoing what others have said, the bulk of my list being 80s and 90s stuff is largely due to the 00s and 10s having stylistic shifts in the opposite direction of where my tastes primarily lie. There was good lucha in the 00s, but things like Dandy/Navarro from IWRG and Santo/Panther from Monterrey are far more similar to the sort of high end lucha we got in the 80s and 90s. On the other hand, mid-late 2000s CMLL main event formula wasn't going to be well represented on my list (because it was bad). Japanese wrestling started to decline in the 00s and shoot style more or less died a death, but most of the 2000s stuff from Japan that I'd have voted for would've been FUTEN/Battlarts, U-Style, Tenryu and Kawada working a hybrid All Japan/WAR slugfest, and Hashimoto trying to throttle Ogawa at the Dome. None of the big NOAH matches do much for me. I don't care one bit for a lot of the prominent players outside of NOAH like Kojima and Tenzan and Nagata. Joshi generally isn't my favourite style anyway, but by the 2000s it was long past its peak years. My favourite Japanese promotions ever are RINGS, Battlarts and WAR and, other than the brief runs/revivals of the Battlarts crew, those promotions were either out of business or had turned to full MMA for the majority of the decade. That's not even factoring in shoot style feds like UWF/UWFi or PWFG. No MPro. ARSION was still around, but by 2001 was it really the same ARSION? US indies had their boom period and WWF/E still produced a lot of good stuff - especially in terms of weekly TV - but I don't like peak ROH or 00s WWE nearly as much as I like what we got from the territories in the 80s. I mean, that Bryan Danielson title run was nice and all but like, there's no Jerry Lawler and Bill Dundee punching each other in the face or Jim Duggan trying to murder Ted DiBiase while wearing a tuxedo or Terry Funk trying to suffocate someone with a plastic bag or Bockwinkel or Rose or the Midnight Express. Most of the wrestling from Japan at this point is nothing close to what I want to watch so the 2010s was never going to be a well represented decade on my list. I like way the fuck more wrestling from the 80s and 90s than the 00s and 10s, basically. Have you watched any recent All Japan matches? Their main event style is quite different to New Japan's and I know there's quite a few puro fans who despise New Japan's style but love All Japan's
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Post by kas on Apr 26, 2019 13:20:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure in twenty years, Kenny Omega, Hiroshi Tanahashi, AJ Styles and Kazuchika Okada will be as higly regarded among hardcore fans as Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, Flair, Hansen and Funk are nowadays. I completely agree. I wouldn't be surprised to see any of the Omega/Okada matches at number one if this list was done in twenty years time.
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Post by KB8 on Apr 26, 2019 14:15:37 GMT -5
On my list that I never actually got around to submitting I had five matches from the 2010s and fourteen from the 2000s, which is actually more than I'd have expected. Echoing what others have said, the bulk of my list being 80s and 90s stuff is largely due to the 00s and 10s having stylistic shifts in the opposite direction of where my tastes primarily lie. There was good lucha in the 00s, but things like Dandy/Navarro from IWRG and Santo/Panther from Monterrey are far more similar to the sort of high end lucha we got in the 80s and 90s. On the other hand, mid-late 2000s CMLL main event formula wasn't going to be well represented on my list (because it was bad). Japanese wrestling started to decline in the 00s and shoot style more or less died a death, but most of the 2000s stuff from Japan that I'd have voted for would've been FUTEN/Battlarts, U-Style, Tenryu and Kawada working a hybrid All Japan/WAR slugfest, and Hashimoto trying to throttle Ogawa at the Dome. None of the big NOAH matches do much for me. I don't care one bit for a lot of the prominent players outside of NOAH like Kojima and Tenzan and Nagata. Joshi generally isn't my favourite style anyway, but by the 2000s it was long past its peak years. My favourite Japanese promotions ever are RINGS, Battlarts and WAR and, other than the brief runs/revivals of the Battlarts crew, those promotions were either out of business or had turned to full MMA for the majority of the decade. That's not even factoring in shoot style feds like UWF/UWFi or PWFG. No MPro. ARSION was still around, but by 2001 was it really the same ARSION? US indies had their boom period and WWF/E still produced a lot of good stuff - especially in terms of weekly TV - but I don't like peak ROH or 00s WWE nearly as much as I like what we got from the territories in the 80s. I mean, that Bryan Danielson title run was nice and all but like, there's no Jerry Lawler and Bill Dundee punching each other in the face or Jim Duggan trying to murder Ted DiBiase while wearing a tuxedo or Terry Funk trying to suffocate someone with a plastic bag or Bockwinkel or Rose or the Midnight Express. Most of the wrestling from Japan at this point is nothing close to what I want to watch so the 2010s was never going to be a well represented decade on my list. I like way the fuck more wrestling from the 80s and 90s than the 00s and 10s, basically. Have you watched any recent All Japan matches? Their main event style is quite different to New Japan's and I know there's quite a few puro fans who despise New Japan's style but love All Japan's I don't think I've watched a single All Japan match since about 2012. I know it's been getting a bit of hype in some circles for a while now, though. It's not really a priority for me right now, but I always have a spell of a couple weeks every year where I try and blast through a bunch of pimped stuff from the year, so I may give something a whirl whenever that time comes.
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Post by elliott on Apr 26, 2019 14:21:06 GMT -5
Somebody pimp some modern day AJPW in the nominations process forum. I'd love to take a look at some. I'd have literally no idea where to start. I feel like Akiyama is probably still there and highly regarded?
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Post by kas on Apr 26, 2019 14:33:49 GMT -5
Somebody pimp some modern day AJPW in the nominations process forum. I'd love to take a look at some. I'd have literally no idea where to start. I feel like Akiyama is probably still there and highly regarded? Akiyama comes and goes these days, last appearing in last year's Champion's Carnival, and he's had a multitude of great matches, I could write a list of some good AJPW matches if you want?
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Post by Cap on Apr 26, 2019 14:39:25 GMT -5
I would say "cherrypicking" would be a generous way to describe my engagement with modern AJPW, but I absolutely loved Miyahraa vs Ishikawa from the 45th anniversary show in 2017.
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Post by Cap on Apr 26, 2019 14:44:08 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure in twenty years, Kenny Omega, Hiroshi Tanahashi, AJ Styles and Kazuchika Okada will be as higly regarded among hardcore fans as Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, Flair, Hansen and Funk are nowadays. I think you are probably right, honestly.
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Post by Cap on Apr 26, 2019 14:46:07 GMT -5
Just posted 30-21.
Look, I like the general cordial nature of this forum and how everyone respects everyone's opinions... but Andre vs Hansen outside the top #15 is a travesty. Come on, folks... we can do better.
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Post by elliott on Apr 26, 2019 14:50:06 GMT -5
Just posted 30-21. Look, I like the general cordial nature of this forum and how everyone respects everyone's opinions... but Andre vs Hansen outside the top #15 is a travesty. Come on, folks... we can do better. Amen
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Post by elliott on Apr 26, 2019 15:42:01 GMT -5
Somebody pimp some modern day AJPW in the nominations process forum. I'd love to take a look at some. I'd have literally no idea where to start. I feel like Akiyama is probably still there and highly regarded? Akiyama comes and goes these days, last appearing in last year's Champion's Carnival, and he's had a multitude of great matches, I could write a list of some good AJPW matches if you want? Yeah, that would be great!
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Post by kas on Apr 26, 2019 16:19:26 GMT -5
Akiyama comes and goes these days, last appearing in last year's Champion's Carnival, and he's had a multitude of great matches, I could write a list of some good AJPW matches if you want? Yeah, that would be great! 2011 is about the extent of my knowledge, but there's also a fantastic Tanahashi vs Suwama match on 04/09/2008 that I don't think many have seen. 2011
- Daisuke Sekimoto and Yuji Okabayashi vs Manabu Soya and Seiya Sanada (03/21/2011)
- Suwama vs Yuji Nagata (06/19/2011)
- Jun Akiyama vs Suwama (10/23/2011)
2012
- Jun Akiyama vs Takao Omori (02/03/2012)
- Jun Akiyama vs Keiji Muto (03/20/2012)
2013- Kaz Hayashi and Shuji Kondo vs Koji Kanemoto and Minoru Tanaka (01/03/2013)
- Go Shiozaki and Jun Akiyama vs Takao Omori and Manabu Soya (03/17/2013)
- Go Shiozaki vs Suwama (07/14/2013)
2015- Joe Doering vs Go Shiozaki (01/03/2015)
2016- Kento Miyahara vs Takao Omori (03/21/2016)
- Daisuke Sekimoto vs Zeus (04/24/2016)
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Kento Miyahara (05/25/2016) - Jun Akiyama vs Kento Miyahara (07/23/2016)
- Daisuke Sekimoto and Yuji Okabayashi vs The Bodyguard and Zeus (11/27/2016)
2017- Jake Lee vs Kento Miyahara (04/24/2017)
- Kento Miyahara vs Shuji Ishikawa (06/04/2017)
- Kento Miyahara vs Suwama (06/11/2017)
- Shuji Ishikawa vs Suwama (07/17/2017)
- Kento Miyahara vs Shuji Ishikawa (08/28/2017)
- Kento Miyahara vs Suwama (10/09/2017)
- Kento Miyahara and Yoshitatsu vs Shuji Ishikawa and Suwama (12/12/2017, yes it is the same Yoshitatsu from New Japan and WWE)
2018- Joe Doering vs Zeus (01/01/2018)
- Shingo Takagi vs Yuji Hino (04/15/2018)
- Jun Akiyama vs Naomichi Marufuji (04/25/2018)
- Shingo Takagi vs Shuji Ishikawa (04/29/2018)
- Kento Miyahara vs Naomichi Marufuji (04/30/2018)
- Kento Miyahara vs Naomichi Marufuji (05/24/2018)
- Kento Miyahara vs Zeus (07/29/2018)
- Shuji Ishikawa vs Zeus (08/26/2018)
- Naoyo Nomura vs Zeus (09/17/2018)
- Jake Lee vs Kento Miyahara (09/22/2018)
- Kento Miyahara vs Zeus (10/21/2018)
I haven't kept up with 2019 at all, but the highly pimped matches are- Kento Miyahara vs KAI (01/03/2019)
- Kento Miyahara vs Suwama (02/24/2019)
- Daisuke Sekimoto and Yuji Okabayashi vs Shuji Ishikawa and Suwama (03/19/2019)
- Shuji Ishikawa vs Yuji Okabayashi (04/04/2019)
- Dylan James vs Yuji Okabayashi (04/20/2019)
- Yuji Okabayashi vs Zeus (04/21/2019)
- Kento Miyahara vs Yuji Okabayashi (04/25/2019)
- Shuji Ishikawa vs Zeus (04/25/2019)
I haven't really seen many pre-2016 AJPW matches and of those I've watched these are the ones that have stood out to me. My favourite match is probably the first 2018 Miyahara vs Zeus match.
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