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Post by microstatistics on Apr 30, 2019 20:48:32 GMT -5
Agree. On rewatch, I noticed Kobashi stops working the arm as the bomb throwing commences. And for the entire finishing stretch, there is no arm work. 10-15 minutes is an eternity, proportionally speaking, in a 40 minute match so Misawa's arm somewhat recovering by the end makes sense. He continues to sell it even as he is using it for elbows and throws and what not so no complaints from me.
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Post by elliott on Apr 30, 2019 21:41:07 GMT -5
It's also not at all abnormal for limb work not to pay off. How many times did Hansen win with the lariat even though his arm is worked over? Or how many times did Flair make someone submit to the figure 4 after he spent time working the knee? It's not like the Anderson Bros were making people submit.
The limb work is a strategy in a kayfabe sense, but also as a focused and interesting way to eat up time. AJPW TC matches were already long and this one was going to be especially long at 42 min. Filling that time with a clear narrative is good. The limb work itself is varied, well focused, interesting and sold well. I've always thought it added to this match.
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Post by superstarsleeze on Apr 30, 2019 23:46:37 GMT -5
I think people are missing the point of the match if they are getting caught up in the arm psychology. First off the first 15 minutes so more than a third is not built around arm psychology. The match like most Misawa/Kobashi matches is a match of mistake capitalization. Misawa is out for blood immediately and is trying to win within 5 minutes. Kobashi is actually using a containment strategy. But he makes small mistakes that allows Misawa control. Misawa makes the first crucial mistake when his elbow dive eats steel. He gets the lucky elbow that debilitated Kobashi Lariat. He tries non-arm related stuff not as potent and when he tries arm-related stuff he can't capitalize and neither can Kobashi. There are mistakes in this part by both men as they try to navigate with their two potent weapons diminished. It all leads to the Apron spot. That pretty much decides the match. They get there because both men have injured wings. The Apron spot is decided because of the injured arm. Misawa snaps off his signature Rana counter to a power bomb off the Apron. They go home in the next five minutes. There are brief flickers of hope from Kobashi but Misawa won the battle that would win him the war when he won on the Apron. Misawa vs Kobashi is all about mistake management. Arm psychology is just one result of a much broader narrative that ties in all the high risk moves (elbow dives to the floor and Apron spots) together.
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Post by tetsujin on May 1, 2019 4:07:46 GMT -5
To me, the key of that match is precisely how Kobashi was more focused than the last time he faced Misawa for the TC, having a good strategy and wrestling very focused, but at the end he gets too excited and throws it away, he forgets about it... He wasn't ready to be the ace yet. That's where the armwork's importance is to me, not at all in how it worked, but how (and why) it didn't.
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Post by Cap on May 1, 2019 7:12:19 GMT -5
I sort of agree with everyone here. I think the arm work is great, adding a really compelling layer to the dynamic, but it isn't everything. I would also add that anyone who has ever been in a real fight or really any physical competition knows that adrenaline is a hell of a thing. You can feel an injured body part one minute and then not feel it the next. I am not sure dropped limb psychology is always intentional in that way, but as long as it comes down the home stretch and/or cuts in and out in ways that make some sense with the action I don't usually mind it.
There are certainly bad ways to do it and cases where it bothers me a bit, but this isn't one of them.
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Post by superstarsleeze on May 1, 2019 18:39:50 GMT -5
Finally got some time to comment on the list.
As a big Flair fan, I'm happy he took the spot for the US even if I think it is with the 8th best Flair match and that he was able to crack the Top 10.
I was disappointed that only his 89 classics made the Top 100. I know a lot of people are like "Boo hoo he only got 5 matches", but it is the same five matches as everyone always talks about.
I hope more people get behind the Morton match, Taylor matches, Luger matches and that sneaky hidden gem with Savage at GAB '95.
Sticking with the US, if you look at the Top Ten US the majority come from the Golden Period of US Workrate: 89-97.
I am THRILLED how well Bock vs Hennig did. I think that's a huge win no one is talking about. Piper vs Valentine finishing in the Top 10 of US matches of all time is in friggin sane. I'm not quite as high. I see it stuck in 50-75 due to the finish but kudos to Elliot for stumping for it.
The big shocker to me is Magnum/Tully low ranking. I thought that was a number one contender for the overall list just because everyone loves it. (I like it in 25-50 type of way personally).
One of my big goals is to complete US 2000s for the next year and make headway in the 2010s. I'd like to see them get some love but still AJ FUCKING STYLES THE GREATEST OF THE 21ST CENTURY MADE THE TOP 100 you guys fucking rock! I will definitely push AJ vs Roman Hard next year. Easy Top 50 candidate could see it Top 10 once I rewatch.
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