|
|
Post by elliott on Jul 29, 2019 0:46:07 GMT -5
One of the cooler results of GWE was Liger finishing #6 in spite of the backlash against juniors wrestling. He finished #4 in 2006. He seems like the sort of eternally universally great wrestler. The Daniel Bryan of his era. Benoit without the baggage. Liger is undeniable.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Jul 29, 2019 12:39:42 GMT -5
Had the great privilege of seeing him in Charlotte earlier this month. A legend beyond measure in some ways. He has versatility and longevity, but - particularly important to this project - he has some true high end classics.
|
|
|
|
Post by bossrock on Jul 29, 2019 15:46:06 GMT -5
Liger is very much like Mysterio for me where none of his matches QUITE reach the pinnacle (the Samurai match was #40), but his volume and consistency for multiple decades is undeniable. It probably helps that he's had a much less rigorous schedule over the years, but I remember seeing his match with Taiji Ishimori this year and being amazed that he was not only still this good, but he was actually showing this guy up. I remember thinking the same thing during his match with KUSHIDA in 2016. Greatest high-flier second only to Rey, but even before he adapted his style post-96 he never stuck out to me as a "high-flier", maybe at least not how we think about it now. He did the occasional top rope move and dive, but he was always more of a jack-of-all trades. He could wear so many different hats and wrestle so many different styles from anywhere between 10 and 25 minutes and at least be "pretty good".
Easy top 10 contender and someone I think literally anyone can enjoy regardless of style preference.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Jul 30, 2019 18:36:45 GMT -5
I think the two famous Sano matches reach that top tier level.
Yamada could have followed Maeda & Takada to UWF2.0 in 1988 and we'd still be talking about him as one of the top 10 wrestlers ever. Underrated "best Japanese wrestler ever" candidate. You NEVER see him in that conversation, but he still finishes 6th in GWE. Its always just "best junior."
|
|
|
|
Post by microstatistics on Aug 4, 2019 22:00:09 GMT -5
In the Tenryu thread, Elliott mentioned he thinks that the best Japanese wrestler is a 3 person race between Tamura, Tenryu and Fujiwara. But I would personally replace Tenryu with Liger in that grouping.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2019 23:02:12 GMT -5
Oof. I dunno about replacing Tenryu. I'd be more inclined to add liger to the equation than drop Tenryu. That's an interesting comp though.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 18, 2019 3:45:21 GMT -5
I think the two famous Sano matches reach that top tier level. Yamada could have followed Maeda & Takada to UWF2.0 in 1988 and we'd still be talking about him as one of the top 10 wrestlers ever. Underrated "best Japanese wrestler ever" candidate. You NEVER see him in that conversation, but he still finishes 6th in GWE. Its always just "best junior." Been thinking about the highest end Liger matches since Micro mentioned he's similar to Rey Jr in that his best matches may not quite reach the tippy top tier. I put a * next to the ones that I think stand out as particularly great. vs Sano 8/10/89* vs Sano 1/31/90* vs Aoyagi 6/12/90 vs Honaga 4/30/91 vs Owen Hart 4/28/91 vs Hiroshi Hase 5/6/91 vs Norio Honaga 5/31/91 vs Brian Pillman 12/27/91 vs Norio Honaga 2/8/92 vs Pegasus Kid 2/10/92 vs Brian Pillman 2/29/92 (hell of a month for Liger here) vs El Samurai 4/30/92* vs Wild Pegasus 8/12/92 Nothing really stands out in 1993 which is weird. Am I forgetting something? vs Shinya Hashimoto 2/24/94* vs Great Sasuke 4/16/94* vs Great Sasuke 7/8/94* vs Ultimo Dragon 12/13/95 vs Shinjiro Ohtani 3/16/96* vs Black Tiger 6/12/96 vs Dick Togo 6/17/96* vs Shinjiro Ohtani 2/9/97* vs Koji Kanemoto 2/16/97 vs Koji Kanemoto 6/1/97* In 98 & 99 his high end stuff appears to be in tags. 2000 was when they tried the heavyweight push and he was in the G1 and that sucked at the time. I haven't thought about it in 19 years. 2001-02 I remember a return to peak form. The Kikuchi series in particular I watched all of recently and it is spectacular. After that it gets hazy for me. Haven't watched enough in bulk. Pulling out the matches I starred you get a top tier that looks like this: vs Sano 8/10/89* vs Sano 1/31/90* vs El Samurai 4/30/92* vs Shinya Hashimoto 2/24/94* vs Great Sasuke 4/16/94* vs Great Sasuke 7/8/94* vs Shinjiro Ohtani 3/16/96* vs Dick Togo 6/17/96* vs Shinjiro Ohtani 2/9/97* vs Koji Kanemoto 6/1/97* That's a pretty nice top 10 against 7 different opponents. When you start adding in tags you get several more matches on the level of these matches. And realistically, there's a couple of Honaga matches that probably belong in the top tier. Specifically thinking about the Kikuchi rivalry. |
|
|
|
Post by Cap on Aug 18, 2019 8:55:56 GMT -5
I think the Mysterio comparison is an interesting one, but I would actually say Liger's best is probably a touch higher than Mysterio's best for me. The Samurai match is the highest match on my list from either guy. I only had one Mysterio match on my list and two liger matches. If I made a top 1000 matches they would be in the running for most matches on my list though.
|
|
|
|
Post by microstatistics on Aug 18, 2019 10:33:25 GMT -5
I think the two famous Sano matches reach that top tier level. Yamada could have followed Maeda & Takada to UWF2.0 in 1988 and we'd still be talking about him as one of the top 10 wrestlers ever. Underrated "best Japanese wrestler ever" candidate. You NEVER see him in that conversation, but he still finishes 6th in GWE. Its always just "best junior." Been thinking about the highest end Liger matches since Micro mentioned he's similar to Rey Jr in that his best matches may not quite reach the tippy top tier. I put a * next to the ones that I think stand out as particularly great. Wasn't me, it was bossrock. I hold the opposing viewpoint. I had 4 Liger singles matches in my top 100 vs. 1 for Rey. |
|
|
|
Post by bossrock on Aug 18, 2019 11:35:27 GMT -5
I ended up having 3 Liger matches in my top 100 and only 1 for Rey, but Liger's highest match was only 40.
|
|
|
|
Post by microstatistics on Aug 18, 2019 12:22:53 GMT -5
My highest was at #10 (vs. Samurai). The rest were at #37, #63 and #87. Funnily enough, Rey's only match was at #9 (vs. Eddie HH97)
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Aug 18, 2019 15:23:19 GMT -5
Been thinking about the highest end Liger matches since Micro mentioned he's similar to Rey Jr in that his best matches may not quite reach the tippy top tier. I put a * next to the ones that I think stand out as particularly great. Wasn't me, it was bossrock. I hold the opposing viewpoint. I had 4 Liger singles matches in my top 100 vs. 1 for Rey. Goddamnit. We have really good pot in Oregon.  |
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 2:28:03 GMT -5
Was thinking about Liger. Usually when I think about what makes Liger stand out as king of the juniors, I think about his selling and body language. I feel like I've even seen people describe him as having great facial expressions in spite of the mask. I rarely think about his offense because there were so many great offensive wrestlers in the 90s. But Liger has to be on the short list of best offensive wrestlers of the decade just in terms of moveset. By the mid 90s he wasn't doing shooting star presses but by that point his regular movset included the Shotay, Liger Bomb, Running Liger Bomb, Fisherman's Buster, top rope fisherman's buster, top rope ddt, the rolling koppo kick. All this to go along with various suplexes (german/dragon release/bridging) or dives (top rope splash/headbutt) strikes, and submissions that weren't necessarily unique to Liger.
In terms of 90s junior heavyweight offense, I'd probably say Ohtani and peak Benoit are the only guys who compete with Liger when it comes to variety of big offensive moves and execution.
|
|
|
|
Post by bossrock on Sept 8, 2019 9:00:14 GMT -5
I'd probably put Mysterio in that list as well unless you were only referring to NJPW.
|
|
|
|
Post by elliott on Sept 8, 2019 21:09:39 GMT -5
I really just meant Junior heavyweights in general, not necessarily specific to NJPW. I wasn't thinking of Luchadores, otherwise I'd probably put Santo on the list but I've always sort of separated Junior Heavyweights/Cruiserweights from Luchadores. Even the mid-late 90s "lucharesu" guys I see as more similar to your traditional Japanese junior than a traditional luchadore. When I think of Junior Heavyweight/CruiserWeight Wrestling, I honestly think it's easier to compare them to Joshi wrestlers than Luchadores. Koji Kanemoto is more similar to Yumiko Hotta than Blue Panther for example. Manami Toyota is closer to Taka Michinoku than Angel Azteca. Etc etc etc.
Rey Jr is a bit different though because he wasn't really a traditional luchadore compared to someone like Atlantis or Lizmark. Rey spent years working more traditional US/Japanese Junior Heavyweight style while working pretty exclusively for WCW. Before that when he worked in Mexico for lucha companies Rey experimented both with Japanese moves like dragon suplexes, powerbombs, and shoot style submissions. Rey & Juve especially were working Japanese Wrestling Tribute matches with each other on AAA cards in the mid 90s.
So I think Rey & Juve would be fair game in a discussion of 90s Junior Heavyweight Offense. But I would feel weird categorizing Santo or Negro Casas as "junior heavyweights" and wouldn't really consider them in that sort of discussion.
They're interesting picks. I didn't really like Rey & Juve throwing out uranages, tiger drivers, powerbombs & dragon suplexes in lucha promotions, but it was stuff they'd do regularly & often execute well in addition to their array of high flying moves. So in terms of variety & depth of offensive moves a wrestler had in their back pocket, Rey & Juve could & probably did do more than just about any other wrestler of their era. But this leads to the question of whether or not Rey Jr SHOULD be powerbombing & suplexing someone. Even a fellow small wrestler. As Rey continued to gain experience he eventually dropped all of that stuff and became better for it.
Of course, even if you toss out all the bombs & suplexes and just say Rey belongs based on his highspots & execution of them, that is TOTALLY understandable. He just did do a shit ton of other stuff in the mid 90s offensively beyond high flying so I did want to mention that.
|
|
