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Post by bossrock on Dec 15, 2019 16:51:34 GMT -5
Two all-time great aces who both have very different strengths and weaknesses yet were both incredibly successful in being the standard-bearer of their respective promotions.
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Post by nintendologic on Dec 15, 2019 17:00:16 GMT -5
I actually said "Oh, come on!" out loud when I saw this thread. I literally cannot think of a single thing in the ring Cena does better than Misawa.
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Post by elliott on Dec 15, 2019 17:04:43 GMT -5
Promos  |
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Post by bossrock on Dec 15, 2019 17:06:52 GMT -5
OK, maybe this one was a bit too easy but I was honestly curious about potential arguments. Like even if Cena couldn't always elevate dudes like he did in 2007, you still have to consider he needed to make the most of not having the kind of competition Misawa had.
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Post by elliott on Dec 15, 2019 17:09:11 GMT -5
Yes, but its not like Cena didn't have great opponents too.
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Post by Cap on Dec 17, 2019 7:48:57 GMT -5
I would actually argue that I might make promos a draw if I were to go through all the categories on this one. I think of good promos in a sort of old school way. I loath the promo style that emerged from the attitude era that turned promos into bad insult comedy routines. Promos should get the match/rival over, elevate or at least make your opponent look credible, provide insight into your motivation, and provide insight into the nature of the conflict. Cena has some good promos and he can be entertaining, but on the whole... I think he is kind of an actively bad promo. I couldn't give the win to Misawa, but I may make it a draw.
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Post by shodate on Dec 17, 2019 10:43:43 GMT -5
Indeed and i would also argue that misawa was better than cena at interviews by a huge margin.The pure intensity and peaceful tone with the stoicness of his personality all blending together to create an aura of the badassness in his interviews were amazing. And the promos were way more natural realistic also he could show fire when needed in them. cena is a pretty bad interview since i feel most of what he says is said in such a rigid and forceful way that to me it feels really phony.
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Post by Cap on Jan 20, 2020 20:09:59 GMT -5
Top Matches
I think Jon Cena is one of the best when it comes to the WWE main event style… at least when he is at his best. The Umaga and Bryan matches are locked on my list with no sign of change. The Extreme Rules match with Brock and the Punk MITB matches are cusp matches (would likely make a top 200 list). But…. Lets face it. This one is going to Misawa and it really isn’t that close.
Winner: Misawa
Versatility
They both are near the top when it comes to the main event style for their respective promotions/styles and era. Misawa had solid Jr work and certainly has more well respected tag and multi-man work. The more I think about it, the more I do see Cena as somewhat lacking in this category. I give him credit for working to evolve. PWG Jon Cena had some hits (and some misses), but he showed sparks of versatility.
Winner: Misawa
Consistency
I probably haven’t dug as deep into the entire career of Misawa as some, but I think of him as quite consistent. Even when he is in matches that I am not super wild about, he is working hard in them. Generally speaking, bad Misawa matches are still pretty good matches. Cena, I can’t say the same for. Misawa has the advantage of working more consistently with a higher quality of opponent I think. Cena worked with some genuinely bad, boring, and sometimes just out of their depths wrestlers. Even still, I can’t be giving this to Cena. Misawa is a more consistent wrestler in my eyes, but I’d be open to hearing arguments about down periods for Misawa or otherwise arguments about him being less consistent.
Winner: Misawa
Charisma/”It” Factor
Probably the closest category yet (or overall). Misawa has a stoic charisma that was essential for who he was and where he was. That said, I can sometimes find myself bored with the character of Misawa. It can feel one note. Cena – especially after the Dr. of thuganomics stuff (which I pass on) – always feels like a big deal. He isn’t quite the rock, but his crossover appeal gives him this category.
Winner: Cena
Promos
I should call this a draw because I don’t speak Japanese, but as I said earlier, I genuinely despise most of Cena’s promos and the style he helped solidify in the WWE post attitude era. I’m going to give this to Misawa because Cena gets negative points in this category.
Winner: Misawa
Elevating Others
Cena probably should get a little credit here. PWG Cena I think genuinely helped elevate some of the indie darlings that were trying to make their way on the main roster. He has helped make lots of guys feel like main eventers…. However, he also often finds a way to make sure they are put back down in their place by the end of it. Was Misawa made by the other pillars or did he ensure they were made? The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Misawa is going to get this one, but it is pretty close. Chasing Misawa helped at least a hand full of great wrestlers reach legend status.
Winner: Misawa
Offense
Misawa…. Just Misawa.
Winner: Misawa
Selling
Another category that feels fairly easy for me. Cena could sell well when he wanted to. He has that over the top selling that can be really annoying sometimes, but can really work at others. Misawa sells with a lot of nuance and – for me – deceptive consistency. I get that sometimes things disappear at the end of the match, but generally I find those to fit with the genre and how fans are trained in the context. Adrenaline is also a hell of a thing and they timing of his no selling USUALLY doesn’t bother me.
Winner: Misawa
Rewatch Value
First one of these that wasn’t tough for me in a while. I’d take Misawa’s catalogue over Cena’s 10 times out of 10. Too many top end matches. Too many matches that I have and will continue to go back to.
Winner: Misawa
Elliott’s Bonus Question (Brody/Nigel)
I’ll actually give this to Cena. He is associated with memorable work with The Great Khali. Misawa doesn’t have anything like that I can think of off hand.
Final Count
Misawa – 8
Cena 1.5
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Post by elliott on Jan 21, 2020 3:21:45 GMT -5
I wanted to defend Cena a little bit by responding to some of Cap's points. Obviously (look at the votes) I voted for Misawa here but if you're a huge fan of post 2000s WWE, it wouldn't be crazy to see this as much closer. Cena also has multiple other great matches with Punk, Edge TLC, JBL match, Rey Jr match, the Mark Henry match, multiple matches with Rusev, multiple matches with Kevin Owens, stuff I'm certain I'm forgetting off the top of my head. Some of this stuff is legit really awesome, some isn't really my thing (Kevin Owens). The Umaga, Bryan, Brock, Punk matches match up really well with just about anyone's 4 best singles matches. I'd include the Rey Jr RAW match on that level as well to make it 5. They're also all really different in a way that Misawa's really aren't. I think there's a great argument for Cena here. Misawa could and would do more in the ring certainly, but look at Cena's top tier matches you listed. Umaga, Bryan, Brock, Punk. Those are really different opponents and stylistically different matches that Misawa never really produced due to the promotions he was in. Cena had top tier crazy brawls built around gimmicky set pieces like the Edge, JBL, Umaga matches, big guy vs smaller guy matches against someone like Mark Henry or Khali where Cena is the smaller guy, big guy vs smaller guy against Rey where Cena is the bigger guy, he could work long classic modern day NWA meets modern WWE against guys like Daniel Bryan, Shawn Michaels or CM Punk, he did the PWG workrate stuff against Kevin Owens, he could work with dogshit terrible workers and figure out how to have compelling matches with them like Khali and Edge, he could go with internet darlings who had better reps like Rey Jr or Bryan. Misawa was awesome as Ace Misawa. Junior Misawa really isn't all that great or memorable. Misawa does have as big a laundry list of great tags and multi match matches. I wouldn't argue Cena's a better tag wrestler, but WWE never featured tag matches like AJPW did, so its like the promos question. Kinda irrelevant. Misawa also has a rep for taking the night off in tag matches ( as he should have) and letting his partner do most of the work. Which to reiterate, I don't have a problem with. But while Misawa has been in loads of all time great tags & multi man matches, it is oftentimes Kawada, Kobashi, Taue, Akiayama, Jumbo, Kikuchi, Hansen, even Fuchi doing the vast majority of the work. Not saying at all that Misawa is a bad tag wrestler. Want to reiterate that. Also worth noting that AJPW tags & multi man matches are worked like AJPW singles match. So while there's a shit ton of all time great matches, I'm not really sure there's versatility in MIsawa tags vs Singles. I actually think Cena is the answer here unless we strictly define versatility as how many moves you can do in the ring and not consider things like Cena's ability to produce at a high level in a wider variety of settings against a wider variety of opponents with a wider variety of a tools/skillsets. Misawa might have been able to do more in the ring, but Cena did more with what he could do. Consistency Don't really have much to respond to Cap to here in regards to Cena. I agree, he had some terrible opponents over the years. But on Misawa's consistency, he could take the night off in tags & multi man matches. I don't honestly see that as bad, nor is it unique to Misawa as far as top guys. He would always rise to the occasion in big matches even when injured though. Even later when he got older and became more formulaic in terms of match layout, the matches were still technically good-great so that goes towards consistency. I'd probably go draw here because Cena consistently worked harder on a night in night out basis, but he had some terrible opponents and just more filmed matches than Misawa so Misawa's OPS (On Base % + Slugging) was higher, but he probably didn't work as hard on average as Cena. Agree with Cap on Charisma/It Factor. I had forgotten about the Cena Rapper stuff because I didn't watch regularly at the time. But I was reminded of it when watching the JBL match recently. That is the most embarrassing shit ever. That he got over as a major star while doing that shit and then managed to overcome it to become a pop culture figure outside of wrestling is really amazing. That gimmick would have killed a lot of careers instead of turning them into the biggest guy in the business. That said, I might have still voted for Misawa on Charisma/It factor. It's a different sort of charisma, but no less impressive. Misawa was made by Jumbo mostly and Hansen a little less. Kawada and Kobashi were also both over before Misawa ever took the mask off. Kawada likely wouldn't have had the career he did if not for Tenryu leaving & Jumbo getting sick. Same with Taue. Kobashi was always going to be a star. That was obvious before he ever won a match. Misawa was trying to pass the torch to Kobashi as early as 1998 and it took until 2003 to finally do it. He tried with Kobashi & Akiyama multiple times but always had to end up on top again. It wasn't an ego thing either like many claim. He was actively trying to move aside for years to recover from years of horrible injuries. His inability to elevate his true successor is part of the tragedy of Misawa. Agree on offense and selling. THe argument for Cena here is variety of opponents and matches. Its great that he had 50 4 star matches with Kawada and Kobashi, but I don't know why anyone would want to watch 50 matches that length all worked the same with the same people.  Just the Kawada matches. ^ I don't believe that but it was sitting right there waiting for me. Anyway. There's an argument for Cena based on variety of opponents and settings that realistically has more to do with booking and promotion/era worked than anything else |
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Post by Cap on Jan 21, 2020 12:01:38 GMT -5
To be clear, I wasn't being exhaustive in my analysis (time). I don't mean to knock Cena at all. I like him for the most part. I just don't think he is as good as Misawa. The issue with both men is how they fit in their respective companies during their respective eras. Misawa was the perfect fit to be ace of AJPW. Cena is probably the perfect WWE ace. With Cena particularly I think some of his limitations come from being in the WWE at the time, but its tough to say what his career would look like outside that context.
Top Matches
Again, not going through EVERYTHING each did. Cena had more good to great matches, but I am probably lower on most of those than some of his biggest proponents. For example, I am not nearly the fan of the JBL match as a lot of people are. I did sort of forget the Henry match, but it it doesn't change much for me. Cena has lots of top end matches. Nothing to sleep on there.
Versatility
The argument here for Cena is solid. Like a lot of these comparisons its about how you think of versatility (different styles, different types of matches, ability to adapt, etc). It is close, but I am still pretty comfortable with Misawa as the answer. I think - especiallyin the high end tag and miltis - misawa is quite good and plays a number of different rolls in those. Even if his Jr run isn't all that memorable it is there and I don't think it is a knock on him. Sure Cena got some good work out of dog shit guys, but that is another question for me. He also flexes some brawling muscles and some indie-rific muscles, but a lot of that I sort of see Cena taking changing some things on the surface of his style.
Elevating Others
I think Elliott and I can both be right on this. Misawa may have failed to truly elevate someone to his level to truly take over, but he also may have truly helped elevate those great wrestlers to the different type of iconic status they enjoy today.
Rewatch Value
I do think this one is probably closer than I indicated before. I'd still take Misawa.
The Brody/Nigel Question
I knew you were going there haha.
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Post by bossrock on Jan 21, 2020 17:40:59 GMT -5
Not so crazy of a comparison after all, eh? I think some apologies are in order  |
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Post by Cap on Jan 21, 2020 20:00:58 GMT -5
Haha... I don't think its at all crazy to pair these two up. Honestly, they are the first two names that come to mind when I think of "ace". It beggs the comparison, really.
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Post by elliott on Jan 22, 2020 3:20:09 GMT -5
Its closer than people would probably like to admit, but they're both sub-Stan Lane level. 😊
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Post by Cap on Jan 22, 2020 7:07:50 GMT -5
I agree completely.
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Post by nintendologic on Jan 22, 2020 12:15:27 GMT -5
The phrase "if you're a huge fan of post 2000s WWE" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. I could just as easily say that if you're a huge fan of Troma films, The Toxic Avenger could be seen as on par with Citizen Kane. If you want to say that there are no objective standards for evaluating wrestling and any preference for one wrestler or match over another is inherently legitimate, then fine. But if that's the case, then making comparisons is pointless because it's all a matter of personal taste. For what it's worth, I actually am of the opinion that any preferences beyond basic competence in execution are entirely subjective, which is why I've mostly steered clear of these threads.
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