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Post by Cap on Jan 30, 2023 17:36:19 GMT -5
Hey Folks,
Anyone started thinking about their 2023 list much. I've seen some sporadic conversation and some folks updating their watching threads. I thought I'd just check in and see if anyone has started gearing up for the ballot. Maybe some of yall just "stay ready", but I think I'll probably start digging into some stuff I haven't watched or haven't watched in a while and maybe start strategically rewatching some contenders and top 100 proper (for me) matches pretty soon.
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Post by tetsujin on Jan 31, 2023 3:34:45 GMT -5
Most of my list will remain the same, specially at the top. Those I have pretty clear. One think that happens to me quite often is that I rank a match, and I'm confident in it's placement, but after a week or so I look at it and it's like "man, there's no way X is here higher than Y". But I don't want to watch my ranked matches too much because they lose some value to me, so I might move some positions based on how I feel about looking at the list, but not necessarily because of rewatches.
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Post by Cap on Jan 31, 2023 7:58:49 GMT -5
I feel like through the first three years, I got confident in more of my list each year.
Year One: I was pretty confident in my top 2, but not sure which should be #1
Year Two: I was pretty confident in the matches that belong in my top 15-20 and the order of my top 2
Year Three: I was pretty confident in the order of my top 15-20 and in the matches that belonged in my top 30.
There will certainly be some tweaks (already have been since my last list, but I don't think there will be as many big shifts at the top as last time around. I suspect I will/hope to have a bit more confidence in my top 50-60 or so.
There are also quite a few matches that have dropped out or that I consider contenders that I really want to rewatch for a variety of reasons.
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Post by [Darren] on Jan 31, 2023 9:04:41 GMT -5
I started following the project between the first and second year. But I didn’t submit a list. Primarily just because I wasn’t confident in my tastes. There was so much that I wasn’t familiar with it felt daunting. So, I looked at all the top matches and all the lists. My 2021 ballot had a few things that I picked just as wild personal choices that absolutely won’t make this list the next time.
I think last time I took a lot of the established list and kinda ranked them according to my preference.
This year is different. Partially because I’ve gone through a period where I just didn’t care about wrestling and now I’m back getting excited about it that I just don’t have time for stuff that doesn’t thrill me.
Partially because everything Elliott recommends I’m like “holy shit, this is great. How did I never watch this before ?!”, but I’ve come to the point where I no longer feel like I HAVE to include established all-timers, if I don’t particularly care for them.
The point of this project is to make a case for what we think are the greatest matches. It’s not my job to defend 6/9/95 or Flair/Steamboat or Okada/Tanahashi… Meltzer & everyone on cagematch already did that. I’m here to defend Chicky Starr, Moose Cholak, Bobby Heenan, And Dump Matsumoto.
I’m excited to put this list together. It’s gonna be atleast 50% different from the last one.
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Post by Cap on Jan 31, 2023 11:26:10 GMT -5
I think the latter point is a good one and one that has been discussed here in some form or another multiple times. My own orientation to it continues to evolve. While I still maintain the venn diagram of "favorite" and "best" is not just a circle, it is pretty close. I have sort of always thought the notion that anyone should try to find some objective distance in a project like this is sort of a fool's errand, which is what kept me from participating in the 06 GWE.
Even still, this project has helped me, over time, come to terms with my own taste vs cannon. I think (know) my own taste bends a bit more towards that cannon than Darren or Elliott. I think some highly praised stuff is a bit overrated, but I also think sometimes lots of people like shit because its fucking awesome. I also don't think anyone's opinion of a match exists in a vacuum, so I have no problem admitting that hype - for better or worse - influences my enjoyment of a match. In fact, I love when someone hypes up a match gives me a new perspective to think about. If I wind up enjoying the match more... awesome.
I suppose this is a long way of saying, my list is at a place where figuring out if something like Danielson vs Ki or something like Kobashi vs Misawa belongs higher on my list is sort of an interesting and enjoyable process. I'm taking two simultaneous approaches. The first is the entangled and self-indulgent process where - like I just did - I wax quasi-philosophical about social influence on taste and judgement and over-complicate matters. That is how my brain usually works. The second is the process I am increasingly accepting where I just say "this sparks more joy" and move on. I don't know what that is going to produce honestly (probably nothing too dramatic), but it does make me want to check out new stuff.
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Post by [Darren] on Jan 31, 2023 14:02:56 GMT -5
I love social influence. When I see somebody hyped about a match/wrestler ( or film, musical artists etc) I love hearing how it affected someone and why they hold it in such regard. I think that should be the primary purpose of a project like this. It gives it life and makes it more fluid than a defined canon of work.
It’s because of this I think that Kandori/Hokuto will take the #1 spot from 6/9/95 but because of discussions with younger fans I think that Shibata/Okada will eventually overtake both in that discussion.
But yes. Even if I don’t love a match. I love watching it knowing there’s something that folks really like and if they can articulate that I know what to look for.
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Post by kas on Jan 31, 2023 16:32:14 GMT -5
I've re-watched pretty much all the matches that made my top 100 last year and my list is going to look fairly different at this point. I think GWE and GME truly started becoming enjoyable for me when I got over the idea that there were certain matches or wrestlers that I had to include. My tastes do generally align with what's canon, but there's definitely matches I had on my list last time just because of their reputation.
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Post by tetsujin on Feb 1, 2023 7:58:41 GMT -5
To me, feeling "forced" to include somebody/something is both the best and worst thing for projects like this or GWE.
Like, if you're just not including stuff that you sincerely believe is worthy, just because it's cliché and want to give spotlight to less common choices... You can definitely do it, it's your list and in the end this is all about having fun and discover new wrestling, but you're not really putting your top 100 best matches. You just don't want 6/9/95 or whatever to be as notorious.
But, at the same time, if you really think less popular stuff belongs in your list, fuck it, go ahead. Don't let 90s AJPW or anything bother you just because you don't connect with it. Instead, challenge what's preconceived, bring new discussion to the table. That's more than fine: it's the soul of the project. But... if you're gonna do that, it has to have some sincerity behind it, in my opinion.
I don't know if this take is controversial, and I'm 100% not talking about anyone in particular. In fact, I believe this project has become great at really pushing and argue for less popular stuff against the canon candidates. But looking for variety just for the sake of it, even if you don't really believe in, let's say, a famous CZW deathmatch being better than Flair/Steamboat, that might go against the point of the overall list: to reflect the general consensus.
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Post by [Darren] on Feb 1, 2023 8:33:28 GMT -5
I think to be willingly contrarian and is detrimental to the integrity of this list. There’s an old adage about how you must first learn the rules before you break them. As with art itself, you must be familiar with the conventions in order to break it down into something. You can’t just break rules for the sake of it. I think it also can apply to criticism. A film critic might go through the AFI Top 100 & then progress to Godard, Kurosawa & so forth but then end up finding the art in old genre films which are maybe not as high brow but certainly have an artistic merit that I think can be discussed and praised. I think I’m in my genre film stage.
I love the diversity of folks on this board. There’s a lot of crossover but everybody kinda has their own sandbox and I think that’s to the benefit of the project. When somebody hypes up a modern NJPW match, I’m usually gonna check it out. I’m not always going to like it but I know that most folks aren’t going to nominate anything they don’t think is worthy of discussion. But when I do find a modern puro match that I like it’s even more exciting because maybe that clicked a switch and I’m open to something else I couldn’t access. There’s plenty of bands that I’ve been well aware of for 15-20 years and could never get into but I found a link in another artist and now I’m finally able to appreciate what I couldn’t before.
All this is to say, wrestling is cool and weird and I just like celebrating the best of it.
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Post by club on Feb 1, 2023 15:15:45 GMT -5
Interesting read all. For myself, I've really enjoyed looking into a wider cannon than I had previously. I was active online a fair bit in the mid-late 00s before largely dropping out of that, and it's refreshing to see how things have changed. For example, 80s AJW, 50s Catch and 70s WoS getting some love. I do enjoy a lot of cannon stuff but at the same time am kind of done with a lot of that right now. It's wonderful to be able to be recommended hundreds of new classics. To extend Darren's film analogy, I see parallels with this project and how the diversity and number of voices in the discussion has led to a very different Sight and Sound top 100 this year.
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Post by elliott on Feb 1, 2023 18:29:47 GMT -5
I think it's important to remember where our "canon" really came from. I don't think when we discuss "the canon" we're talking about it in a broader sense of wrestling fandom. We've done this project for 3 years and Hogan vs Andre WM 3 and Shawn vs Bret Iron Man have gotten exactly one vote combined. We mean 90s AJPW, Flair vs Steamboat that sort of thing all the way to 2010s NJPW.
So our canon is really the hardcore wrestling fandom. We're the modern equivalent of sheet reading tape traders of the 80s, RSPW posters of the early to mid 90s and message board posters of the late 90s/early 00s. There are way more of us due advancements in technology but like it or not, that's really our lineage as far as a general type of fan.
You have to remember this "Canon" was created by a relatively small number of people who leaned heavily into their own personal biases and were limited in what they had access to just by the very nature of tape trading. I wasn't tape trading in the 80s, but in the late 90s if you were buying, tapes were $35 for an 8 hour tape if you wanted the best possible video quality & it might take 6-8 weeks to get to you. The 80s were even worse from the sound of things.
I think the hardcore wrestling fan canon should be challenged for any number of reasons but mostly because we have far more access to footage than the people responsible for our canon. We also have less of an emotional connection because we're not butt hurt about Vince trying to kill our favorite territories. That shit was 40 years ago. Who cares if Bill Watts had to sell Mid-South? We aren't seeking out high flying cruiserweights in rebellion to the kiddie stuff on WWF TV and the old farts Hogan Show on WCW.
We are in a better position to actually figure out what the best matches are than the people who made whatever canon we live by as hardcore fans.
Not saying people are wrong for liking the traditional hardcore fan favorites or that there isn't value in looking at what folks came before us liked. But I don't think it should be held up as any special thing.
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Post by Cap on Feb 2, 2023 8:37:32 GMT -5
Elliott's point about where the cannon came from is a good one, but even if the seeds were planted by a hand full of hardcore super dorks [said affectionately] it caught on with folks, spread, and for better or worse became influential in circles. That isn't me saying it shouldn't be challenged (it should) or that we have to hold it up on some pedestal (we don't). But shaking that influence - like the impact of most or all influential figures or cannons - is a lot easier said that done because the impact has already been made. In turn, it isn't the be all end all, but it isn't nothing either. However, Elliott pointing this out makes his particular disdain for a certain poster of GWE infamy make a bit more sense. haha
Reading through this and thinking about it, I actually think this board has a really healthy approach to this. When I think back to conversations and lists, we have taken a more or less "meh" approach to a lot of commonly accepted great matches, even if they wind up doing quite well on the overall list. The discussion and excitement is always around stuff that was under the radar.
I like a word tetsujin used: sincerity. I think this board is sincere in its approach and I've seen very little policing of taste outside some good natured banter. When Elliott, Grimmas, and I started this, that was the goal (at least for me), to create an offshoot project where we can minimize the judgement and bickering and maximize the exploration and good faith discussion of wrestling.
I just hope whenever we inevitably become the new cannon-makers Kandori gets the broader respect she deserves. haha
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Post by elliott on Feb 2, 2023 14:23:54 GMT -5
Elliott's point about where the cannon came from is a good one, but even if the seeds were planted by a hand full of hardcore super dorks [said affectionately] it caught on with folks, spread, and for better or worse became influential in circles. That isn't me saying it shouldn't be challenged (it should) or that we have to hold it up on some pedestal (we don't). But shaking that influence - like the impact of most or all influential figures or cannons - is a lot easier said that done because the impact has already been made. In turn, it isn't the be all end all, but it isn't nothing either. However, Elliott pointing this out makes his particular disdain for a certain poster of GWE infamy make a bit more sense. hahaI seriously have no idea what this bolded part is referencing. Von Kramer? He's a right wing bigot. I think it's a lot easier to "shake the influence" of the canon when you realize where it came from. That's my point. These guys weren't keepers of ancient wisdom who watched everything and compared it bias free. They didn't watch Ric Flair & then queue up Buddy Rose, then the weekly Arena Mexico show and then dig into some 60s French stuff and then come to their conclusions. These were highly biased people with an extremely limited scope of footage. Who cares what they thought? We didn't have a mountain of Portland Buddy Rose footage until the early 2010s after he died. Phil didn't find the French stuff until what like 2015? 2016? It's been less than a decade and that's some of the most amazing wrestling any of us have ever seen. The further forward we go and as we continue to discover more footage from the past and new matches take place, the more obsolete whatever existing Canon becomes. Not saying people are wrong for liking the conventional wisdom great stuff. My point is that due to completely different technology & the continuing discovery of old footage we have access to more footage than any fans ever did. It's our duty to challenge the conventional wisdom because our scope is so much broader.
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Post by Cap on Feb 2, 2023 17:00:30 GMT -5
I was thinking of Parv. Was that Von Kramer? I genuinely can't remember and I might be conflating memories
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Post by Cap on Feb 2, 2023 17:02:34 GMT -5
Looking around on PWO, I believe yes, they were they same person. I didn't realize he was a right wing bigot. I also didn't interact with him all that much or spent much time over there int he past few years.
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