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Post by kas on Jul 26, 2023 16:19:39 GMT -5
So 6/9/95, Misawa/Kobashi, Hansen/Kobashi, Hansen/Andre, Okada/Shibata, MS-1/Chicana, Atlantis/Villano III, Bret/Owen, Bret/Austin, and Hokuto/Kandori is the top 10 right? Safe to say the All Japan dominance has lessened big time
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Post by silverwidow on Jul 26, 2023 16:40:43 GMT -5
Yes, that is the Top 10.
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Post by conker on Jul 26, 2023 16:41:53 GMT -5
I think I had Kobashi/Kikuchi vs Kroffat/Furnas (AJPW - 5/25/1992 ) at 3.
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Post by tetsujin on Jul 26, 2023 17:43:30 GMT -5
Holy shit, I never expected some of the stone cold classics to drop out of the top 10! This year's list is the most exciting one yet. So 6/9/95, Misawa/Kobashi, Hansen/Kobashi, Hansen/Andre, Okada/Shibata, MS-1/Chicana, Atlantis/Villano III, Bret/Owen, Bret/Austin, and Hokuto/Kandori is the top 10 right? Safe to say the All Japan dominance has lessened big time That's a pretty cool and badass top 10, indeed. I would have never guessed Atlantis/Villano. Good work everyone.
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Post by nintendologic on Jul 26, 2023 18:21:26 GMT -5
Pretty cool to finally see some real movement in the top 10 and not just 9/10 shuffling of placements. Bret/Owen cracking that barrier is something I never would have expected. Then again, I had it in my top 20 this year, so I suppose I can claim some share of the credit (blame?).
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Post by [Darren] on Jul 26, 2023 18:44:32 GMT -5
I think I dropped Bret/Owen entirely this year.
I’m very happy the AJPW stuff is dropping. There’s a shift going on. I’d like to see those that really like that stuff get more passionate about it. There was a feeling like some of those matches are untouchable, resting on their laurels.
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Post by microstatistics on Jul 26, 2023 19:57:21 GMT -5
I think I had Kobashi/Kikuchi vs Kroffat/Furnas (AJPW - 5/25/1992 ) at 3. Thanks for the note. We are looking into it. 20. Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (NOAH - 3/1/2003)
Total Points: 1072 # of Ballots: 16 High Vote: Tetsujin - 1 2021 Finish: 14 (-6) My #11. MOTC contender. 19. Shawn Michaels vs Mankind (WWF - 9/22/1996)
Total Points: 1096 # of Ballots: 16 High Vote: Microstatistics - 3 2021 Finish: 30 (+11) My #3. Good to see it back in the Top 20. 18. Brock Lesnar vs John Cena (Extreme Rules - WWE - 4/29/2012)
Total Points: 1115 # of Ballots: 17 High Vote: [Darren] & puroraisedme - 5 2021 Finish: 15 (-3) My #49. This was actually the first time I voted for this one. I was always partial to the Summerslam squash but this is far superior. Cena's best by a million miles. 17. Nick Bockwinkel vs Curt Hennig (AWA - 11/21/1986)
Total Points: 1181 # of Ballots: 16 High Vote: Tetsujin - 2 2021 Finish: 11 (-6) I should probably rewatch this but I have a sneaky feeling it's not going to significantly change my initial impression. 16. Eddy Guerrero vs Rey Misterio Jr (Title vs Mask - WCW - 10/26/1997)
Total Points: 1200 # of Ballots: 21 High Vote: Mattsdmf - 9 2021 Finish: 31 (+15) My #17 so spot on. 15. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (Champion's Carnival Final - AJPW - 4/15/1995)
Total Points: 1223 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: Tetsujin - 4 2021 Finish: 12 (-3) My #69. This is probably my most watched match ever. 14. Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu (AJPW - 6/5/1989)
Total Points: 1224 # of Ballots: 18 High Vote: KB8 - 2 2021 Finish: 10 (-4) This has been sliding down my list for years now, from where KB8 has it to Top 20 to outside the Top 50. Now it's a Top 200 pick. So it's still great, mainly thanks to a murderous Jumbo performance. Accordingly, no complaints about this finish.
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Post by Cap on Jul 26, 2023 19:59:30 GMT -5
19. Shawn Michaels vs Mankind (WWF - 9/22/1996) Total Points: 1096 # of Ballots: 16 High Vote: Microstatistics - 3 2021 Finish: 30 (+11)
This felt like a significant jump until I saw that 30 was the lowest this has finished. This isn’t my favorite Foley match, but it might be my favorite Foley performance.
12. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW - 6/3/1994) Total Points: 1260 # of Ballots: 18 High Vote: Control21 - 1 2021 Finish: 5 (-7)
This falling out of the top 10 is pretty easily the biggest surprise (at least so far) the year for me. This has finished #2, #3, #5, and now 12. That is no knock on the match at all and #12 all time is nothing to scoff at, but THIS falling out of the top 5, let alone 10 is pretty shocking.
11. Akira Hokuto and Shinobu Kandori vs Aja Kong and Bull Nakano (AJW - 3/27/1994) Total Points: 1267 # of Ballots: 17 High Vote: Kadaveri - 1 2021 Finish: 28 (+17)
Love to see this taking a jump up towards the top 10. A singular match. I don’t think any match strings together the dynamics between four participants quite like this one. Truly special.
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Post by lemming on Jul 27, 2023 7:16:07 GMT -5
20. Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (NOAH - 3/1/2003)
Probably in the top 5 Misawa/Kobashi matches. (So still good!)
19. Shawn Michaels vs Mankind (WWF - 9/22/1996)
18. Brock Lesnar vs John Cena (Extreme Rules - WWE - 4/29/2012)
Two top tier WWE matches. Both unorthodox, violent and feel out of control in ways that are hard to replicate.
17. Nick Bockwinkel vs Curt Hennig (AWA - 11/21/1986)
Probably should rewatch this one. It's just ...really long.
16. Eddy Guerrero vs Rey Misterio Jr (Title vs Mask - WCW - 10/26/1997)
Big jump for another "beloved by everyone" match.
15. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (Champion's Carnival Final - AJPW - 4/15/1995)
Taue <3
14. Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu (AJPW - 6/5/1989)
13. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas (AJPW - 5/25/1992)
Tenryu and Kobashi were the most represented wrestlers on my list but I didn't quite find space for either of these. Both good matches though of course.
12. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW - 6/3/1994)
Still a pretty excellent bit of wrestling I reckon. Finishing stretch is pure fire.
11. Akira Hokuto and Shinobu Kandori vs Aja Kong and Bull Nakano (AJW - 3/27/1994)
It's ok.
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Post by tetsujin on Jul 27, 2023 7:51:23 GMT -5
So, let's predict the top 10:
10. Atlantis/Villano III 9. Bret/Owen
As the most shocking new additions to the top, I don't think they manage to surpass some locked classics. However they already surpassed Misawa/Kawada or Jumbo/Tenryu so we'll see. I believe more people might have voted for WM X than the apuestas match though.
8. Chicana/MS1
Iirc this was on the top 10 once, but never consistently high. So I don't think it'll be any higher this year, but if it is, that's awesome!
7. Okada/Shibata 6. Misawa/Kobashi 20/1/97
Two spectacular title matches that are ranking very high because the people voting for them surely will have them extremely high (they're both in my top 10 for example), but not everyone here loves the King's Road style and so I don't think it'll be in enough ballots to make it to the top 5. Hope I'm wrong though. Again, more people might have voted for the AJPW classic than the modern one.
5. Hansen/André 4. Hansen/Kobashi
Two universally loved matches but also two matches that practically no one believes are the actual GOAT match. So top 5, but not top 3. Hansen/Kobashi feels slightly more beloved to me, though.
3. Bret/Austin 2. Hokuto/Kandori 1. 9/6/95
I think the winner will be defined between these three. I believe these three have been the matches more universally praised as the best ever in this forum's existence. 9/6/95 hegemony is really hard to beat, but if a match has a chance to do it, it's either the canonical best female match ever or the canonical best WWE match ever. I'll put Hokuto/Kandori in second place for a very dumb reason and that's because their other famous match performed mucho better than the other famous Bret/Austin match.
Still, it's the Pillars tag.
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Post by lemming on Jul 27, 2023 8:13:04 GMT -5
So, let's predict the top 10: 10. Atlantis/Villano III 9. Bret/Owen As the most shocking new additions to the top, I don't think they manage to surpass some locked classics. However they already surpassed Misawa/Kawada or Jumbo/Tenryu so we'll see. I believe more people might have voted for WM X than the apuestas match though. 8. Chicana/MS1 Iirc this was on the top 10 once, but never consistently high. So I don't think it'll be any higher this year, but if it is, that's awesome! 7. Okada/Shibata 6. Misawa/Kobashi 20/1/97 Two spectacular title matches that are ranking very high because the people voting for them surely will have them extremely high (they're both in my top 10 for example), but not everyone here loves the King's Road style and so I don't think it'll be in enough ballots to make it to the top 5. Hope I'm wrong though. Again, more people might have voted for the AJPW classic than the modern one. 5. Hansen/André 4. Hansen/Kobashi Two universally loved matches but also two matches that practically no one believes are the actual GOAT match. So top 5, but not top 3. Hansen/Kobashi feels slightly more beloved to me, though. 3. Bret/Austin 2. Hokuto/Kandori 1. 9/6/95 I think the winner will be defined between these three. I believe these three have been the matches more universally praised as the best ever in this forum's existence. 9/6/95 hegemony is really hard to beat, but if a match has a chance to do it, it's either the canonical best female match ever or the canonical best WWE match ever. I'll put Hokuto/Kandori in second place for a very dumb reason and that's because their other famous match performed mucho better than the other famous Bret/Austin match. Still, it's the Pillars tag. Looks reasonable to me. (I actually hadn't twigged Bret/Owen hadn't dropped, was trying to work out what the tenth match I'd missed was.) I'll guess: 10. Atlantis/Villano 9. WM10 8. Hansen/Andre 7. MS 1/Chicana 6. Hansen/Kobashi 5. Bret/Austin 4. Misawa/Kobashi 3. Okada/Shibata 2. Hokuto/Kandori 1. 6/9/95
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Post by Cap on Jul 27, 2023 8:20:28 GMT -5
I'll take a guess
10. Owen/Brett 9. Hansen/Andre 8. Atlantis/Villano 7. Hansen/Kobashi 6. MS-1/Chicana 5. Hart/Austin 4. Okada/Shibata 3. Kobashi/Misawa 2. 6/9/95 1. Kandori/Hokuto
Obviously that is probably 75% heart guess and 25% head guess.
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Post by KB8 on Jul 27, 2023 11:55:25 GMT -5
20. Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (NOAH - 3/1/2003) Total Points: 1072 # of Ballots: 16 High Vote: Tetsujin - 1 2021 Finish: 14 (-6)
This isn't really for me. Most NOAH main events just feel so bloated to me and nobody was worse for leaning into that than Kobashi. I think I like this even less than his match with Akiyama a year later. Maybe not as much as the Sasaki match. Even the first half of the Takayama match did nothing for me on re-watch. Anyhow, I can certainly see the appeal, but this is everything from 90s All Japan that I lost interest in turned up another couple notches.
19. Shawn Michaels vs Mankind (WWF - 9/22/1996) Total Points: 1096 # of Ballots: 16 High Vote: Microstatistics - 3 2021 Finish: 30 (+11)
My straight up favourite match ever, my #8 on this, and one I couldn't really see myself dropping out of the top 10 at any point. I'd consider voting it #1 before #11, tbh. Grimmas said on the discord last night that this felt like the precursor to all of the shitty WWF hardcore matches of the future where everything is hyper-rehearsed and rigged and I had to step outside for a walk. I have never felt such incandescent rage. This is the exact opposite of any of that shit and it's as gritty as any WWF match of the 90s and probably as close as Shawn Michaels ever came to looking like a badass. This match is fucking amazing and I'm stoked that it finished as one of the 5 highest ranked WWF/E matches ever, and inside the overall top 20.
18. Brock Lesnar vs John Cena (Extreme Rules - WWE - 4/29/2012) Total Points: 1115 # of Ballots: 17 High Vote: [Darren] & puroraisedme - 5 2021 Finish: 15 (-3)
Lesnar and his Suplex City stuff can certainly be problematic, but he has the aura of something that WWE in its present day can't really manufacture, and his presence in things like this really elevates matches to a level most can't reach. More than a decade later this still feels unique, even amongst Lesnar's other matches that tread a similar narrative line. It's as close as WWE ever came to bringing in a Naoya Ogawa and letting him run absolute fucking riot on their Hashimoto. It's one of Cena's greatest performances, and probably the Cena match that holds up best for me.
17. Nick Bockwinkel vs Curt Hennig (AWA - 11/21/1986) Total Points: 1181 # of Ballots: 16 High Vote: Tetsujin - 2 2021 Finish: 11 (-6)
Look, it's an hour-long match that I never felt bored by at any point when watching it. I didn't vote for it but that's a hell of a thing; a thing that doesn't mean shit to anybody else, granted, but it's about as complimentary to any hour-long match as I can be. "Didn't bore me even once." I can only hope someone etches that on my headstone some day.
16. Eddy Guerrero vs Rey Misterio Jr (Title vs Mask - WCW - 10/26/1997) Total Points: 1200 # of Ballots: 21 High Vote: Mattsdmf - 9 2021 Finish: 31 (+15)
My #23. There's not a whole lot more to say about this in the year 2023, but I watched it again a week or so before the deadline and still liked it as much as I ever have. A couple amazing performances from two guys made to wrestle each other.
15. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (Champion's Carnival Final - AJPW - 4/15/1995) Total Points: 1223 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: Tetsujin - 4 2021 Finish: 12 (-3)
Of all the 90s All Japan matches that I haven't watched in 10+ years, this is the one I'm most looking forward to actually seeing again.
14. Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu (AJPW - 6/5/1989) Total Points: 1224 # of Ballots: 18 High Vote: KB8 - 2 2021 Finish: 10 (-4)
Any time I re-watch this there's a part of me that expects it to drop a little. On last watch it did the opposite and pretty much blew me away. My #2.
13. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas (AJPW - 5/25/1992) Total Points: 1251 # of Ballots: 17 High Vote: dkuchler31096 - 4 2021 Finish: 7 (-6)
Really good match with an amazing crowd. If I was to make a "best southern tags ever" list it would probably only be behind four Midnight Express matches, two Rockers matches and one Tonga Kid match.
12. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW - 6/3/1994) Total Points: 1260 # of Ballots: 18 High Vote: Control21 - 1 2021 Finish: 5 (-7)
Got absolutely no issues calling this a brilliant match. Re-watched it a couple weeks ago and it held up really well - probably better than expected, tbh - even if I didn't regret not watching it before the deadline. It's a stylistic preference and I'm not sure I'd be compelled to vote for it myself, but I'd have this in the top 10 before another match from 1994 that'll finish there.
11. Akira Hokuto and Shinobu Kandori vs Aja Kong and Bull Nakano (AJW - 3/27/1994) Total Points: 1267 # of Ballots: 17 High Vote: Kadaveri - 1 2021 Finish: 28 (+17)
I should watch this again. I saw it for the first time in 2016 during the run up to the GWE and it was one of the things that shot Kandori onto my list. I like joshi more now than I ever have in 15+ years so I feel like I'd be into this more now as well.
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Post by microstatistics on Jul 27, 2023 17:11:13 GMT -5
20. Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (NOAH - 3/1/2003)
Total Points: 1072 # of Ballots: 16 High Vote: Tetsujin - 1 2021 Finish: 14 (-6) This isn't really for me. Most NOAH main events just feel so bloated to me and nobody was worse for leaning into that than Kobashi. I think I like this even less than his match with Akiyama a year later. Maybe not as much as the Sasaki match. Even the first half of the Takayama match did nothing for me on re-watch. Anyhow, I can certainly see the appeal, but this is everything from 90s All Japan that I lost interest in turned up another couple notches. 19. Shawn Michaels vs Mankind (WWF - 9/22/1996)
Total Points: 1096 # of Ballots: 16 High Vote: Microstatistics - 3 2021 Finish: 30 (+11) My straight up favourite match ever, my #8 on this, and one I couldn't really see myself dropping out of the top 10 at any point. I'd consider voting it #1 before #11, tbh. Grimmas said on the discord last night that this felt like the precursor to all of the shitty WWF hardcore matches of the future where everything is hyper-rehearsed and rigged and I had to step outside for a walk. I have never felt such incandescent rage. This is the exact opposite of any of that shit and it's as gritty as any WWF match of the 90s and probably as close as Shawn Michaels ever came to looking like a badass. This match is fucking amazing and I'm stoked that it finished as one of the 5 highest ranked WWF/E matches ever, and inside the overall top 20.
20. That's interesting since people who are down on both those NOAH matches seem to prefer this one. Moreover, I can see people who don't like these Kobashi matches also not caring much for modern big match wrestling because many of the epics of today essentially try and ape this type of layout but, generally, lack the range, variety, and inherent match building-skills to even come close.
19. Hmm, something tells me that type of criticism does not really stem from the match itself but from the presence of a certain heartbreak kid. Because, like you said, the work is pretty much antithetical to all that.
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Post by KB8 on Jul 27, 2023 17:15:18 GMT -5
To be fair, I think I'd agree with you on the point about people trying to ape Misawa/Kobashi and generally failing, frequently pretty miserably. The style isn't for me, but if I needed to watch anybody work it I'd be more likely to eventually come around on it if it were those two than the vast majority of pairings.
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