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Post by elliott on Aug 4, 2023 21:35:05 GMT -5
I guess take it to DMs was lost. Every post since my last one shows everyone is still missing my initial point by so wide a margin that it may be too far gone to discuss at this point. I appreciate you keeping it nice, we wouldn’t want anyone to get crazy … on a wrestling board. So again. This can be discussed privately and I’ll be glad to engage and try and reiterate what I am trying to say instead of everyone getting lost in the weeds with the contextual bits. If you want me to respond, DM. Otherwise, I’ll just assume all you want is to have the last word. I don't think this is the type of discussion you should get heated over...professional wrestling is an art, and like any other artform, it is highly subjective. The philosophy behind "art" generally is very wide ranging and the academic discussion around what counts as subjectivity, objectivity, canon, etc, can go on for years without any resolution. Someone may find Mona Lisa to be an "okay" art piece, and then point to some random Socialist Realism painting as a masterpiece. Would this be the common consensus? Probably not, but to them, that's what they appreciate. It does not make their point any less valid, and if they wanto say "Stalin" by Isaak Brodsky is better than Mona Lisa, that is their perogrative and it is just as valid as saying Mona Lisa is better than "Napoleon Crossing the Alps" by Jacques-Louis David. This forum is small group of people from a wrestling forum known for its very wide-ranging opinions so it should be expected we have a very diverse range of taste here. If you feel 6/9/95 is better than almost every wrestling match, that is okay, but you shouldn't come here and suggest people are not being honest about their opinions and question their integrity. Bingo.
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Post by ringodread on Aug 5, 2023 2:55:48 GMT -5
I’m done with this. If anyone would still like to miss my point, please take it to DMs so the fine people of this board can review this thread as intended. I've been reading this thread and I'd like to see you continue to try and justify your takes because I don't think you've done that yet. Not sure why you want to take it to DMs. Surely discussion is what the forum is for. You've continued to argue that there is such a thing as objectively good art (in this case, wrestling matches). I fundamentally disagree with that. What is it about the matches you selected that makes them objectively better than the ones you didn't?
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Post by mrjmml on Aug 5, 2023 6:56:48 GMT -5
I’m done with this. If anyone would still like to miss my point, please take it to DMs so the fine people of this board can review this thread as intended. I've been reading this thread and I'd like to see you continue to try and justify your takes because I don't think you've done that yet. Not sure why you want to take it to DMs. Surely discussion is what the forum is for. You've continued to argue that there is such a thing as objectively good art (in this case, wrestling matches). I fundamentally disagree with that. What is it about the matches you selected that makes them objectively better than the ones you didn't? Of course, his opinion is the objective and definitive guide to pro wrestling and art as a whole.
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Post by [Darren] on Aug 5, 2023 7:39:54 GMT -5
I think it’s important to note that 6/9/95 still won and even though many big 90s AJPW matches dropped. They’re was still an overwhelming representation.
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Post by [Darren] on Aug 5, 2023 7:55:19 GMT -5
I personally wouldn’t want to render this to a DM because I think the discussion has value to the project as a whole.
I don’t believe gradykm meant to stir up shit the way they did.
But it unfortunately is emblematic of a project that is growing. As this goes on and more folks want to be a part of this they come from different perspectives.
I’ve always felt this project has done a great job of challenging conventional wisdom while still upholding integrity. Some among us are huge fans of modern NJPW and some don’t care for it at all and we can all coexist and can benefit from these discussions.
We’re all nerds who like to make lists, but we all consume art and media in different ways that are colored by our own experiences.
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Post by elliott on Aug 5, 2023 11:21:42 GMT -5
I personally wouldn’t want to render this to a DM because I think the discussion has value to the project as a whole. I don’t believe gradykm meant to stir up shit the way they did.
But it unfortunately is emblematic of a project that is growing. As this goes on and more folks want to be a part of this they come from different perspectives. I’ve always felt this project has done a great job of challenging conventional wisdom while still upholding integrity. Some among us are huge fans of modern NJPW and some don’t care for it at all and we can all coexist and can benefit from these discussions. We’re all nerds who like to make lists, but we all consume art and media in different ways that are colored by our own experiences. I disagree. If they were operating in good faith they would have: 1. Not disparaged the integrity of the project & the participants 2. Waited until the results were rolled out instead of choosing the eve of the top 5 (when we had real movement in the top 10 including a surprising drop) to declare the project compromised 3. Not made a bunch of strawman arguments from the start. 4. Not cowardly run away to DM's once they realized everyone was going to push back. Whatever is at play, it's fucking lame.
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Post by [Darren] on Aug 5, 2023 11:32:48 GMT -5
It was smug and misguided, yes.
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Post by elliott on Aug 5, 2023 11:40:50 GMT -5
I think it’s important to note that 6/9/95 still won and even though many big 90s AJPW matches dropped. They’re was still an overwhelming representation. I even voted for a 90s AJPW match in my top 25 but it was the wrong one apparently.
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Post by Cap on Aug 5, 2023 11:54:20 GMT -5
I suppose I'm less interested in weather or not this was some bad faith action or not at this point than I am getting some clearer sense of the argument. I agree with Darren in that this conversation should stay here and be hashed out here or and I agree with ringodread in the sense that I am still not sure I understand what the point really is.
Gradykm, I thought I got it, but apparently we are still missing it. If the point is not that there is some criteria by which we should all be striving to understand and measure "best" (as opposed to favorites) and you believe that some people are not doing that, what is it you are trying to say? I think that point has been answered in a few different ways, but they all sort of boil down to: there are varied tastes and criteria for enjoying wrestling and those should not be considered any less valid.
The "best vs favorites" conversation and the conversion of questioning/challenging/diverging from "cannon" have been going on here for some time, so these ballots that are being brought into question and this discussion doesn't exist in a vacuum. Maybe it is me superimposing my own journey on the board as a whole, but I think part of what has happened broadly over the past 5 years or so is that people have really started to hone and understand their own tastes, become more confident with that, and in turn reckon with how how their own wrestling ideology (to get as pretentious as possible about it here) aligns or doesn't with "cannon". Additionally - and perhaps more important - everyone here, as far as I can tell, has put in the work. We don't have folks throwing ballots together. I think that is particularly true for someone like Elliott (who I mention because his ballot seems to be one of the talking points), but I have to assume it is true for those who are not as active as well. I give anyone who comes here and takes the time to put a ballot together the benefit of the doubt (until they give me reason not to).
I know I'm being my typical long winded self, but I suppose the TLDR version is... if folks are still missing the point, what is the point? What is the dynamic between favorite and best or what do you think it should be?
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Post by elliott on Aug 5, 2023 13:55:24 GMT -5
I’m done with this. If anyone would still like to miss my point, please take it to DMs so the fine people of this board can review this thread as intended. I've been reading this thread and I'd like to see you continue to try and justify your takes because I don't think you've done that yet. Not sure why you want to take it to DMs. Surely discussion is what the forum is for. You've continued to argue that there is such a thing as objectively good art (in this case, wrestling matches). I fundamentally disagree with that. What is it about the matches you selected that makes them objectively better than the ones you didn't? Bingo. All of this.
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