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Post by mvz on Jul 27, 2023 17:50:45 GMT -5
11-6 has been posted. As noted earlier, I miscounted conker's vote for Kobashi/Kikuchi vs CanAms, so that has moved up. Sorry for the confusion. Thank you!
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Post by puroraisedme on Jul 27, 2023 17:58:49 GMT -5
Shibata/Okada so close to Top 10.
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Post by silverwidow on Jul 27, 2023 18:16:08 GMT -5
PREDICTION
6/9/95 Hokuto-Kandori Bret-Austin Kobashi-Misawa Hansen-Andre
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Post by KB8 on Jul 27, 2023 18:20:43 GMT -5
Chicana/MS-1 finishing above Bret/Owen is very excellent. Chicana/MS-1 finishing above Hansen/Kobashi and 6/3/94 and every match in history bar five is shaking but even more excellent. The motherfucking lucha libre!
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Post by tetsujin on Jul 27, 2023 18:28:18 GMT -5
Hahaha Kobashi and Kikuchi vs Can Arm Express with the Dusty finish Sorry Okada/Shibata, someday I supose. Yes, Chicana/MS1 did better than ever, that's cool. Bret/Owen is very welcomed to the top 10 as well. Surprised to see Hansen/André in the top 5, but can't complain, it is almost perfect.
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Post by microstatistics on Jul 27, 2023 18:47:04 GMT -5
13. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW - 6/3/1994) Total Points: 1260 # of Ballots: 18 High Vote: Control21 - 1 2021 Finish: 5 (-8)
A stunning fall quite honestly, though it parallels my own experience since this fell out of my Top 100. Still a great match for sure but it lacks the focused layout of the very best matches of the era/style.
12. Akira Hokuto and Shinobu Kandori vs Aja Kong and Bull Nakano (AJW - 3/27/1994) Total Points: 1267 # of Ballots: 17 High Vote: Kadaveri - 1 2021 Finish: 28 (+16)
My #36. Quite a clear pattern here: 90s AJPW falls and Joshi rises. In hindsight, it really shouldn't be surprising. No complaints about this one though, this is a tag classic.
11. Katsuyori Shibata vs Kazuchika Okada (NJPW - 4/9/2017) Total Points: 1280 # of Ballots: 15 High Vote: dkuchler31096 - 1 2021 Finish: 18 (+7)
This seems to be the "stand the test of time" pick when it the modern bunch of "super classics". It was #1 on Cagematch at one point. I gave it another shot and, yeah, it's not for me. There were elements I liked but the body was too listless. Still, the #1 vote and the near-Top 10 finish are cool.
10. Atlantis vs Villano III (Mask vs Mask - CMLL - 3/17/2000) Total Points: 1307 # of Ballots: 17 High Vote: Club - 1 2021 Finish: 26 (+16)
Sadly, this was one of, if not the biggest disappointment for me this time around. In many ways, this was like a lucha title match worked into a high stakes apuestas, which sounds like the optimal combination. But the actual *wrestling* just wasn't as compelling as I remembered. I'll probably revisit it though.
9. Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW - 7/29/1993) Total Points: 1318 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: silverwidow & Puropotsy - 5 2021 Finish: 6 (-3)
Decent match but I was never high on it. The 91 clash is their best.
8. Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (WWF - 3/20/1994) Total Points: 1346 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: Mattsdmf - 4 2021 Finish: 22 (+14)
My #23. Funny, I had this around #8 last time I submitted (it finished at #24 then). Quite the swap.
7. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas (AJPW - 5/25/1992) Total Points: 1349 # of Ballots: 18 High Vote: conker - 3 2021 Finish: 7 (0)
Still fantastic but it missed my list this time, contradicting the "this should be on every ballot" argument I endorsed.
6. Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair - EMLL - 9/23/1983) Total Points: 1393 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: Cap - 2 2021 Finish: 21 (+15)
So close to the top 5. Still, TWO lucha matches in the Top 10 is remarkable quite frankly. Conversely, the lack of a #1 vote for this is also surprising.
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Post by microstatistics on Jul 27, 2023 18:50:42 GMT -5
Hahaha Kobashi and Kikuchi vs Can Arm Express with the Dusty finish Sorry Okada/Shibata, someday I supose.
Yes, Chicana/MS1 did better than ever, that's cool. Bret/Owen is very welcomed to the top 10 as well. Surprised to see Hansen/André in the top 5, but can't complain, it is almost perfect. Perfect way of putting it.
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Post by gradykm on Jul 27, 2023 19:00:30 GMT -5
With the top 5 upon us, I have a proposal that I wanted to run by everyone. It seems the integrity of the project may be getting close to being compromised. I see negative comments regarding the usual suspects always dominating the top of the list, etc. This, to me, looks like the reason for so-called "strategic voting" or "spiteful voting". For example, seeing 6/9/95 in ballots in the 90-100 range or in some cases off ballots completely. Don't get me wrong, I realize voting on subjective art is, well, subjective. And I may be taking this way too seriously. I personally feel that being as objective as possible on a subjective subject that there is no way there are 100 matches (to date) better than 6/9/95. I hate to harp on that match specifically, but since it has been #1 for 3, possibly 4 years running and most of the comments has been regarding it specifically, I chose it as the example.
This brings me to my idea. A separate list. A Hall of Fame if you will. Qualifications being that if a match finishes in the top 5 for 4 consecutive years, then it enters the Hall of Fame and becomes ineligible for voting. It would be kind of like an enshrinement.
This allows new spots at the top of the bi-annual list and avoids the fun of voting from getting stale or compromised.
Currently, now that only the top 5 are left this year, 3 matches qualify for the proposed "Hall of Fame"
Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue - 6/9/95 (#1 in 2019,2020, 2021. Top 5 vote 2023) Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - 1/20/97 (#3 2019, #5 2020, #3 2021, Top 5 vote 2023) Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori - 4/2/93 (#4 2019, #2 2020, #4 2021, Top 5 vote 2023)
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Post by Control21 on Jul 27, 2023 19:04:06 GMT -5
With the top 5 upon us, I have a proposal that I wanted to run by everyone. It seems the integrity of the project may be getting close to being compromised. I see negative comments regarding the usual suspects always dominating the top of the list, etc. This, to me, looks like the reason for so-called "strategic voting" or "spiteful voting". For example, seeing 6/9/95 in ballots in the 90-100 range or in some cases off ballots completely. Don't get me wrong, I realize voting on subjective art is, well, subjective. And I may be taking this way too seriously. I personally feel that being as objective as possible on a subjective subject that there is no way there are 100 matches (to date) better than 6/9/95. I hate to harp on that match specifically, but since it has been #1 for 3, possibly 4 years running and most of the comments has been regarding it specifically, I chose it as the example. This brings me to my idea. A separate list. A Hall of Fame if you will. Qualifications being that if a match finishes in the top 5 for 4 consecutive years, then it enters the Hall of Fame and becomes ineligible for voting. It would be kind of like an enshrinement. This allows new spots at the top of the bi-annual list and avoids the fun of voting from getting stale or compromised. Currently, now that only the top 5 are left this year, 3 matches qualify for the proposed "Hall of Fame" Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue - 6/9/95 (#1 in 2019,2020, 2021. Top 5 vote 2023) Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - 1/20/97 (#3 2019, #5 2020, #3 2021, Top 5 vote 2023) Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori - 4/2/93 (#4 2019, #2 2020, #4 2021, Top 5 vote 2023) I never thought this project has the risk of descending into that of nonsense, and I don't think it has. We just have a very wide range of people with different tastes in wrestling. I'm sure some people have rolled their eyes at my ballot for ranking random RINGS matches ahead of other stuff. I think bigger platforms like Cagematch have that issue, but we have a very small group of people who mostly know each other to some degree at the moment. Maybe if this project ever expands to 100+ people, that would be a concern.
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Post by Cap on Jul 27, 2023 19:11:30 GMT -5
11. Katsuyori Shibata vs Kazuchika Okada (NJPW - 4/9/2017) Total Points: 1280 # of Ballots: 15 High Vote: dkuchler31096 - 1 2021 Finish: 18 (+7)
This match continues to creep up the list. I think a lot of folks see this eventually winding up #1. I won’t be surprised. It sort of creeps up my list as time goes on. I also feel better loving it now that Shibata is back (thanks in no prat to the miracle workers who took is brain out, polished it up, and put it back in – haha)
10. Atlantis vs Villano III (Mask vs Mask - CMLL - 3/17/2000) Total Points: 1307 # of Ballots: 17 High Vote: Club - 1 2021 Finish: 26 (+16)
This belongs in the top 15-20 at least, so it is nice to see it here. I’ll always have a soft spot in my heart for this match, something that really caught me as I was first really getting into the magic of lucha.
9. Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW - 7/29/1993) Total Points: 1318 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: silverwidow & Puropotsy - 5 2021 Finish: 6 (-3)
This slipped down my list lately (now 16) and that feels icky. Looking back, I’m probably at least a few slots low on it. I’d call it a masterclass in hoss fights, but no one else could learn to do what these two did because there just aren’t hosses like this.
8. Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (WWF - 3/20/1994) Total Points: 1346 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: Mattsdmf - 4 2021 Finish: 22 (+14)
I’m not going to lie, this is one I’ve never seen as a top 100 match. It is the only match in this top 15 that I didn’t vote for. It is awesome. I totally get why folks love it. I don’t have anything bad to say about it, but I just remain somewhat detached from its climb into the top 10.
6. Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair - EMLL - 9/23/1983) Total Points: 1393 # of Ballots: 19 High Vote: Cap - 2 2021 Finish: 21 (+15)
In the top 10 where it fucking belongs. I’m not sure if there really should be such a thing as a wrestling cannon, but if there is, this should be central to it.
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Post by elliott on Jul 27, 2023 19:21:08 GMT -5
With the top 5 upon us, I have a proposal that I wanted to run by everyone. It seems the integrity of the project may be getting close to being compromised. I see negative comments regarding the usual suspects always dominating the top of the list, etc. This, to me, looks like the reason for so-called "strategic voting" or "spiteful voting". For example, seeing 6/9/95 in ballots in the 90-100 range or in some cases off ballots completely. Don't get me wrong, I realize voting on subjective art is, well, subjective. And I may be taking this way too seriously. I personally feel that being as objective as possible on a subjective subject that there is no way there are 100 matches (to date) better than 6/9/95. I hate to harp on that match specifically, but since it has been #1 for 3, possibly 4 years running and most of the comments has been regarding it specifically, I chose it as the example. This brings me to my idea. A separate list. A Hall of Fame if you will. Qualifications being that if a match finishes in the top 5 for 4 consecutive years, then it enters the Hall of Fame and becomes ineligible for voting. It would be kind of like an enshrinement. This allows new spots at the top of the bi-annual list and avoids the fun of voting from getting stale or compromised. Currently, now that only the top 5 are left this year, 3 matches qualify for the proposed "Hall of Fame" Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue - 6/9/95 (#1 in 2019,2020, 2021. Top 5 vote 2023) Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - 1/20/97 (#3 2019, #5 2020, #3 2021, Top 5 vote 2023) Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori - 4/2/93 (#4 2019, #2 2020, #4 2021, Top 5 vote 2023) No.
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Post by mvz on Jul 27, 2023 19:32:30 GMT -5
I don’t want to divert this thread but I disagree that the results of the survey are compromised and I think the results so far points toward a voter base that is not voting strategically. It seems more likely to me that changes would occur over time, especially as the voter base broadens and we see and learn about new things.
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Post by mvz on Jul 27, 2023 19:33:02 GMT -5
Elliott said it better as usual.
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Post by elliott on Jul 27, 2023 19:37:31 GMT -5
This has turned into an awesome list.
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Post by nintendologic on Jul 27, 2023 19:38:30 GMT -5
Hansen/Andre certainly has a lot going for it and I understand why people dig it, but...one of the five greatest matches of all time? Really? With the top 5 upon us, I have a proposal that I wanted to run by everyone. It seems the integrity of the project may be getting close to being compromised. I see negative comments regarding the usual suspects always dominating the top of the list, etc. This, to me, looks like the reason for so-called "strategic voting" or "spiteful voting". For example, seeing 6/9/95 in ballots in the 90-100 range or in some cases off ballots completely. Don't get me wrong, I realize voting on subjective art is, well, subjective. And I may be taking this way too seriously. I personally feel that being as objective as possible on a subjective subject that there is no way there are 100 matches (to date) better than 6/9/95. I hate to harp on that match specifically, but since it has been #1 for 3, possibly 4 years running and most of the comments has been regarding it specifically, I chose it as the example. This brings me to my idea. A separate list. A Hall of Fame if you will. Qualifications being that if a match finishes in the top 5 for 4 consecutive years, then it enters the Hall of Fame and becomes ineligible for voting. It would be kind of like an enshrinement. This allows new spots at the top of the bi-annual list and avoids the fun of voting from getting stale or compromised. Currently, now that only the top 5 are left this year, 3 matches qualify for the proposed "Hall of Fame" Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue - 6/9/95 (#1 in 2019,2020, 2021. Top 5 vote 2023) Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - 1/20/97 (#3 2019, #5 2020, #3 2021, Top 5 vote 2023) Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori - 4/2/93 (#4 2019, #2 2020, #4 2021, Top 5 vote 2023) I actually kind of dig this idea, like TRL back in the day. 6/9/95 is to wrestling matches what the Backstreet Boys are to music. They're so far above everyone else that you have to retire them to give others a fair shot.
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