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Post by fadu on Jan 7, 2018 13:47:36 GMT -5
While I think preserving a canon of classic matches is important for passing down the history of wrestling, obviously not every match praised by a consensus is gonna be a hit with every individual. That said, what are examples of those on your end?
I'll start by saying I don't really get Tully/Magnum nor do I really get 6/3/94. I'll definitely be rewatching them eventually but, on multiple previous viewings, the lauded simple brutality of Tully/Magnum never came across to me and I think AJPW has much better dramatic narrative-weaving in other matches than 6/3/94.
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Post by Cap on Jan 7, 2018 13:54:34 GMT -5
This is a great topic. I am going to give this some thought.
I don't think this counts as "classic" but Cena v JBL from Judgement Day gets a good bit of love and I don't love it. I actually sort of dislike it because it feels like a contrived version of what JBL and Eddie did a year earlier.
I am sure there are better ones for me that I will think of.
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 7, 2018 14:21:37 GMT -5
I said this in another thread but my general hatred of comeback Shawn Michaels really colors my perception of his big matches.
I also thought Joe vs. Kobashi was good but not great. But I generally found that mid 00s Kobashi to be extremely overrated.
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Post by Cap on Jan 7, 2018 16:02:03 GMT -5
I said this in another thread but my general hatred of comeback Shawn Michaels really colors my perception of his big matches. I also thought Joe vs. Kobashi was good but not great. But I generally found that mid 00s Kobashi to be extremely overrated. I can see that... How do you feel about Kobashi in general? I have always felt like if I wasn't a massive Kobashi mark on the whole I would probably find his 00s work to be overdone. As it is it connects with me big time. |
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 7, 2018 16:58:41 GMT -5
I said this in another thread but my general hatred of comeback Shawn Michaels really colors my perception of his big matches. I also thought Joe vs. Kobashi was good but not great. But I generally found that mid 00s Kobashi to be extremely overrated. I can see that... How do you feel about Kobashi in general? I have always felt like if I wasn't a massive Kobashi mark on the whole I would probably find his 00s work to be overdone. As it is it connects with me big time. I generally like his work though I think I like Taue better overall. There was just something really samey and lazy about his 00 work. I feel like it was getting overlooked because of his age where a younger wrestler would be getting ripped to shreds for that style of work. I think it's also obvious in hindsight that he severely shortened his career by not altering his style. Say what you want about Mutoh and being lazy but he probably added an extra decade on to his career by changing his style as age started to limit him. |
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Post by Cap on Jan 7, 2018 18:08:31 GMT -5
I can see that... How do you feel about Kobashi in general? I have always felt like if I wasn't a massive Kobashi mark on the whole I would probably find his 00s work to be overdone. As it is it connects with me big time. I generally like his work though I think I like Taue better overall. There was just something really samey and lazy about his 00 work. I feel like it was getting overlooked because of his age where a younger wrestler would be getting ripped to shreds for that style of work. I think it's also obvious in hindsight that he severely shortened his career by not altering his style. Say what you want about Mutoh and being lazy but he probably added an extra decade on to his career by changing his style as age started to limit him. I can buy that. I have always been such a Kobashi guy (though Taua really grew on me when I was following GWE). By the 00s he was giving me what I wanted emotionally, bit excessive crazy matches. I don't think they are without their rationale and overarching psychology. They were my all time gun slinger refusing to give up his throne that he worked so damn hard for. There were some time period issues that I think required that to be over the top in its own way, but I can 100% see why people aren't into them and the critiques make a ton of sense. I'll put it this way (and this is not controversial or anything) I more readily understand people saying they dislike this than I am the swing I see in people saying they are down on 90s AJPW. Neither bother me really, but the former is easier for me to sympathize with. |
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 7, 2018 18:13:39 GMT -5
It might age better with Kobashi. I haven't seen most of his stuff since it happened. I was a little jaded at the time admittedly so I might like that stuff a little better a decade plus after the fact. I've actually thought about going back to NOAH and watching 2000-2008 in chronological order. Dream big I say.
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Post by fxnj on Jan 8, 2018 6:57:52 GMT -5
2000's NOAH heavyweight stuff has been my main disappointment from what I've been watching recently. I pretty much agree with the critiques of Kobashi's matches from this period of losing the subtleties and deep storytelling that made AJPW matches great in favor of repetitive strike exchanges and body-crippling suplexes. I feel as if there was an agent in the AJPW days (I've heard it speculated to be Fuchi) who kept things in check but who wasn't there to help out with laying out the NOAH main events. The booking is also some of the worst seen from any promotion not named WCW and actually makes it kind of difficult for me to even enjoy a lot of the good stuff. I think the split between Misawa and Baba's widow is really sad and unfortunate for all in involved in retrospect.
I feel similarly about what I've seen in 2000's ROH, though my opinion is subject to change as I still haven't seen a whole lot from them. Too workratey for me and the self-congratulatory atmosphere of the big pimped matches I've seen also kind of turns me off.
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 8, 2018 7:59:00 GMT -5
With early 2000s RoH, you want to skip most of the card and hit the main events or big matches between good workers.
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Post by El Mckell on Jan 8, 2018 10:57:40 GMT -5
Magnum - Tully was mentioned in the very first post and that's my big pick for this, it's like a 4 star match to me.
Basically all highly regarded shoot style matches, I just cannot get big into the style
Another thing I don't get is when people talk about the CM Punk - Samoa Joe trilogy as if all the matches are great. One of them is great, one of them is fine, and one of them is an hour long snoozefest.
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Post by tetsujin on Jan 8, 2018 16:16:55 GMT -5
Magnum - Tully was mentioned in the very first post and that's my big pick for this, it's like a 4 star match to me. Same here. It's a very good match, with both men giving the best screams I've ever heard in a pro wrestling match. The finish is awesome. But beyond that... it's just another bloodbath more in the office. The cage itself isn't used as much as I expect from this type of matches, and I don't feel the all-time-hate I hear about in this. Maybe it's 'cause the same year we have one of my favourite matches, Duggan/DiBiase, which is very similar to Tully/Magnum in terms of concept (classic heel vs face dynamic, inside a steel cage, with blood and hate) but the execution is sooo much better... Idk, the I Quit is just another very good 80s cage brawl to me. |
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Post by bossrock on Jan 8, 2018 17:32:02 GMT -5
I've never really been able to get into the Lawler-Savage matches. I get that they're character work-heavy matches but after 10 mintues I feel like screaming "Do something!". Lawler in general is a guy who has some stuff I dig a lot (Funk, Dutch) but other stuff that leaves me underwhelmed.
I really dig Joe-Kobashi (Kobashi might be my favorite of all-time) but I see it more as a "really good match" as opposed to a classic. Same for Punk-Cena. An all-time great crowd boosts a match that doesn't really get cooking until the second half.
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Post by sams on Jan 8, 2018 20:55:07 GMT -5
My answer to this has to be Money in the Bank 2011. The heat in the arena is nuclear, but great booking aside, the actual work feels like it could be any generic WWE main event. Perhaps even below average because of how sloppy Punk is at various points.
Additionally, Bryan v Triple H at Mania. Once again I'm not seeing the greatness. I just suspect people are getting carried away due to the feel good story of Bryan overcoming the odds.
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Post by gordi on Jan 8, 2018 22:51:26 GMT -5
It's not that I don't get Jerry Lawler. I can easily see why he's a lot of people's favourite, a lot of people's choice for #1. It's just... he doesn't connect with me. I don't like him. I want him to lose.
It's like: Bruce Sprinsteen. Great band, good songs, there's some sincerity there, he puts on a great live show... but if one of his songs comes on the radio, I'm changing the station.
I don't know why that is. I am not suggesting that if you love Lawler (or Springsteen) that your taste is poor. Just that, for whatever reason, your tastes are different from mine.
People whose opinions I respect and often agree with love Lawler, love Springsteen. Makes me want to give them another try. People recommend matches, songs... but... nope. I feel next to nothing. Just can't get into it.
Taste is a fascinating and difficult subject. Maybe as a little kid you fell down and skinned your knee as you were eating a hot dog n the park. Now, as a grown up, you really dislike hot dogs. You might be all "it's garbage meat and bad for you" or "it's too salty and greasy" but in fact it's cuz you got an owie when you were 5. Who knows why Lawler's matches don't do it for me but Bret's and Jumbo's and Ozaki's and Felino's and Asian Cooger's and The Barbarian's do.
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Post by smartmark15 on Jan 8, 2018 23:03:35 GMT -5
Lucha just does not connect to me. Perhaps the grammar of the matches just doesn't make sense to me yet but when I try out some well-pimped lucha classics, while I'm entertained at parts, I just don't feel any sense of urgency to see more or see it again. I don't know what it is.
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